Brexit

If you read my posts you would perhaps comprehend that I have answered you.

In reality, economically, they are virtually no better than what we already have, if at all. Yet 50% of our bread and butter trade, currently frictionless, is being jeopardised to allow for fiddling about with other deals.

Anyway, I have finished my coffee and must leave my park bench.

Have a good day.

Just a further word on trade deals geared towards the UK's "sovereign requirements and possible benefits.

Some current deals specify certain percentages of "home produced" goods that must needs be met to meet the requirements of zero tariffs and quotas. As part of the EU there are certain goods deemed "home produced" that involve imports from the EU which then become part of a manufactured UK item which is then sold on. Obviously, once the UK leaves the EU such items will no longer meet requirements as far ad the original percentages are concerned.

I have no idea of the consequences of this but I mention it simply to show that "bespoke" Trade Deals are need not necessarily be to the UK's advantage.

Just to add, dear old Liz Truss, our Trade Secretary, tweeted about cheaper soy sauce after signing the Japan/UK deal. She had to take the tweet down when it was pointed out that we get our soy sauce from the Netherlands (much cheaper than Japan) and that given the current state of trade negotiations with the EU the price was likely to rise.

Canada? Hopefully we shall be able to buy cheaper Action Man Mounties, while Canada will be pleased to take our Priti Patel Bully Dolls. Vat free!

Not a fan of sarcasm?


Not necessarily. Half truths can often be accepted as "facts" whilst "facts" themselves can conceal as much as they reveal. Making the effort to find "facts" from different sources that you yourself source is but one part of the process in the formulation of your own ideas. Bear in mind too that in any given situation there is often more than one "truth".



Is that so? The very affluent have bank rolled both sides but to what extent they have 'driven' the campaigns is a matter of subjective evaluation. Anyway, so how about the remain funding generated by Lord Malloch-Brown, the very 'generous' donations of wealthy individuals like George Soros, Lord Sainsbury, David Harding. I could go on and on and on. Were they interested in the concerns expressed by leave voters? Were these hedge fund managers, CEO's etc concerned for example about the depression of wages in areas like construction due to oversupply brought about by an influx of workers from predominately central and Eastern European member states? Were they concerned about any of the issues that some people face day to day that had a link to EU membership? You seem to think that the UK belonging to the EU is a win for every one. It's not. There are winners and losers. Same as in almost any outcome or situation. The winners want things to remain the same whilst the losers want change. No great surprise there.


Might I suggest you look at say the top 20 donors to the remain campaign and then tell me what they all have in common. If you think they haven't benefited financially from the UK being a part of the EU then you are naïve. If you think they don't do everything they can to minimise the amount of tax they pay then you are naïve.

Ah yes, those in the media who express support for leave are biased whilst those who want to remain are unbiased. So of course this means the BBC, The Guardian and the Independent for example are trustworthy and unbiased if you are pro EU. This despite the fact that time and again they post key "facts" that are easily proven to be incorrect, or "facts" that are merely someone's opinion.

I actually saw Don Lemon claim that he was totally unbiased. That he was neither of the "left" or the "right". He claimed that unlike most he looked dispassionately at the available information and drew his own conclusions. It's just by pure coincidence that he ALWAYS holds the same views as the "left".

Hope the weather has been nice for you. Life here is probably 80% of normal which is nice, though I do feel for places like Europe and other parts of the world where this is not the case.

I agree with your agreeing that we are in agreement...in this instance.

Of course the wealthy have supported both sides by donations. However, you can verify that 6 of the top 10 were supportes of Leave. Again, Leave’s greater share of elite donations was also matched by its dominance of the overall amounts given during the referendum. Leave received £17.5 million of all donations - almost exactly one vote for every pound given towards the Brexit campaign - compared to Remain’s £14.2 million.

Obviously, the ability of the very rich to influence any electorate is something that needs to be addressed, no matter what side of the fence we are on. Looking back through history, not much changes, and I do not think it will change in the future. As you suggest, genuine independence of mind is a tricky thing to achieve.

As far as depression of wages caused by EU immigrants, please try fact checking. The issues are complex.

No, I do not think the EU is a win win situation. I simply think/thought that it was the UK's best option to Remain.

Shadowen posted:- Ah yes, those in the media who express support for leave are biased whilst those who want to remain are unbiased. So of course this means the BBC, The Guardian and the Independent for example are trustworthy and unbiased if you are pro EU. This despite the fact that time and again they post key "facts" that are easily proven to be incorrect, or "facts" that are merely someone's opinion.

I actually saw Don Lemon claim that he was totally unbiased. That he was neither of the "left" or the "right". He claimed that unlike most he looked dispassionately at the available information and drew his own conclusions. It's just by pure coincidence that he ALWAYS holds the same views as the "left".

I respond:- I am not referring to "bias" but to simple lies and misinformation. The stories spread by Boris Johnson in his shady past he has actually admitted to making up, that he was in effect "having a laugh". Yet I hear them repeated by others as if gospel truth. Again, to refer to EU officials on many occasions as "bullies" and "dictators" in headlines and editorials, goes beyond "bias" and enters the realm of ignorance. Maybe you have to live here to recognise and be aware of how anti-EU rhetoric has caught the "imagination" of many whose actual catalogue of facts seems pretty sparse.

Of course every news source has a slant. we all have a slant. Yes, all politicians lie. But some lie far more than others and their lies are more virulent.


That's it. I retire.

Thank you.

Thank you. I enjoyed my three years in OZ. Fond memories.

Strange things happening on this thread! Posts disappearing, others there when I'm not logged in, then not there after logging in. Yikes!

Here are some of the anti-EU headlines to be found in our UK newspapers over the past 20 years.


EC regulations to ban playgrounds – Daily Express
Rolling acres outlawed by Brussels – The Telegraph
EU to scrap British exams – Sunday Express
Obscure EU law halting the sale of English oak seeds – Mail on Sunday
EU may try to ban sweet and toy ads – The Times
EU to tell British farmers what they can grow – Daily Mail
EU ‘Bans Boozing’ – Daily Star
Light ale to be forced to change its name by Eurocrats – Daily Mail
EU fanatics to be forced to sing dire anthem about EU ‘Motherland’ – The Sun
British apple trees facing chop by EU – The Times
EC plan to ban noisy toys – Sunday People
EU to ban bagpipes and trapeze artists – The Sun
Children to be banned from blowing up balloons, under EU safety rules – Daily Telegraph
Straight cucumbers – The Sun
Curved bananas banned by Brussels bureaucrats – The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Express
Brussels bans barmaids from showing cleavage – The Sun, Daily Telegraph
Rumpole’s wig to scrapped by EU – Mail on Sunday
Church bells silenced by fear of EU law – Daily Telegraph
Motorists to be charged to drive in city centres under EU plans – Daily Telegraph
EU to stop binge drinking by slapping extra tax on our booze – The Sun
Brandy butter to be renamed ‘brandy spreadable fat’ – The European
British loaf of bread under threat from EU – Daily Mail
Truckers face EU ban on fry-ups – The Sun
EU to ban Union Flag from British meat packs – Daily Express
EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds – Europa News Agency
Double-decker buses to be banned – Daily Telegraph
EU bans eating competition cakes – Timesonline
Now EU officials want control of your CANDLES – Daily Express
21-gun salutes are just too loud, Brussels tells the Royal Artillery – Mail on Sunday
Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales – Daily Mail
Plot to axe British number plates for standardised EU design – Daily Express
Women to be asked intimate details about sex lives in planned EU census – Daily Express
British cheese faces extinction under EU rules – PA News
EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds – The Sun, The Telegraph
British chocolate to be renamed ‘vegelate’ under EU rules – Daily Mail
EU to ban church bells – Daily Telegraph
British film producers warn of new EU threat to industry – The Independent
Kilts to be branded womenswear by EU – Daily Record
EU to ban double decker buses – Daily Mail
Cod to be renamed ‘Gadus’ thanks to EU – Daily Mail
Brussels to restrict drinking habits of Britain’s coffee lovers – Daily Express
EU responsible for your hay fever – Daily Mail, The Times
Condom dimensions to be harmonised – Independent on Sunday
EU wants to BAN your photos of the London Eye – Daily Express
Corgis to be banned by EU – Daily Mail
EU forcing cows to wear nappies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats to ban crayons and colouring pencils – The Sun
Smoky bacon crisps face EU ban – Sunday Times
EU outlaws teeth whitening products – Daily Mail
Domain names – ‘.uk’ to be replaced by ‘.eu’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to ban HGV drivers from wearing glasses – The Times
New eggs cannot be called eggs – Daily Mail
EU to ban selling eggs by the dozen – Daily Mail
UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug – Daily Star, Daily Mail
EU targets traditional Sunday roast – Sun on Sunday
English Channel to be re-named ‘Anglo-French Pond’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to force EU flag on England shirts – Daily Mail
EU orders farmers to give toys to pigs – The Times
Firemen’s poles outlawed by EU – Daily Mail
Euro ban on food waste means swans cannot be fed – The Observer
Noise regulations to force football goers to wear earplugs – The Sun
Traditional Irish funeral under threat from EU – Daily Telegraph, The Times
EU to ban high-heel shoes for hairdressers – Daily Express
Commission to force fishermen to wear hairnets – Daily Telegraph
Brussels to ban herbal cures – Daily Express
Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”– the Guardian
EU bid to ban life sentences for murderers – Daily Express
New EU map makes Kent part of France – Sunday Telegraph
EU tells Welsh how to grow their leeks – The Times
EU to ban lollipop ladies’ sticks – News of the World
EU plot to rename Trafalgar Square & Waterloo station – Daily Express
UK milk ‘pinta’ threatened by Brussels – The Sun
EU bans ‘mince’ pies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats say Santa must be a woman – The Sun
Now EU crackpots demand gypsy MPs – Daily Express
Brussels to outlaw mushy peas – The Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times
Brussels says shellfish must be given rest breaks on journeys – The Times
Pets must be pressure cooked after death – Sunday Telegraph
EU puts speed limit on children’s roundabouts – Daily Express
2-for-1 bargains to be scrapped by EU – Daily Mirror
EU madness: chat up bar girl and pub will be fined – Daily Star
Queen to be forced to get her own tea by EU – The Sun
EU tells women to hand in worn-out sex toys – The Sun
British rhubarb to be straight – The Sun
EU to ban rocking horses – The Sun
Scotch whisky rebranded a dangerous chemical by EU – Daily Telegraph
Brussels ban on pints of shandy – The Times
“High up” signs to be put on mountains – BBC
Euronotes cause impotence – Daily Mail
EU to ban under 16-year-olds from using Facebook – Daily Mail
Strawberries must be oval – The Sun
EU orders swings to be pulled down – Daily Express
Tea bags banned from being recycled – BBC
British lav to be replaced with Euro-loo – The Sun
Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harrasment – Daily Telegraph
Bosses to be told what colour carpets to buy by EU – Daily Star
EU says British yoghurt to be renamed ‘Fermented Milk Pudding’ – Sunday Mirror
EU to ban zipper trousers – The Sun


Yes, all media sources have a "slant" but can others provide examples of headlines equally misleading/nonsensical/deceptive from sources more supportive of the EU? To claim that such headlines as listed above had no part to play in many members of the great British public coming to view the EU as some kind of bureaucratic nightmare, eating up public money for no purpose, and worse, of "foreigners" being just a little on the dopey side, must be in pure denial.

And here is the man himself, Boris Johnson, writing in one of his newspaper columns:-

I was sort of chucking these rocks over the garden wall and I listened to this amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England as everything I wrote from Brussels was having this amazing, explosive ­effect on the Tory party – and it really gave me this, I suppose, rather weird sense of power”

Yes, rather weird indeed!

I like this rather liberal use of the word "Trade Deal" in relation to the roll over agreements made with Canada and Japan, and other states.

Of course, Brexiters are anxious to use the word "deal" wherever possible because it can be manipulated to make it appear that Brexit is successful, but this is not so.

What Britain has actually agreed is to keep trading with each other on EU terms. But of course, Brexiters don't want to say that because that smacks (to them) of Britain not quite "taking back control".

In effect, the agreements signed maintain the status quo while the long, slow process of beginning actual trade negotiations begin.

This is called a "Roll Over".... another phrase the Brexiters won't like. Britain "rolling over".... sounds like "surrender" to them. But that is what it is.

So let's not hear any more nonsense about 50+ "trade deals" with other countries. It's just not happened.

UK and Canada Agree To Continue Trading Under EU Terms

Fisheries is another area that isn't going well.....

Brexit Could Be The Final Nail In The Coffin For Cornish Fishermen

This is becoming a serious concern now as the true consequences for the British fishing industry are becoming clearer.

For a start, fish only accounts for 0.1% of British GDP so it is of no real strategic importance to the economy. In the bigger picture it is a "political" matter.... eg, emotive.

But to the Cornish economy, it is very important and the penny finally starting to drop that Cornish fishermen, who currently land more than 80% of their catch in French ports might find that outlet denied to them after January 1st. At the very least, it is likely that there could be delays that will render their catch unsellable.

You can catch all the fish you like, but if you've got nowhere to sell them, or they've deteriorated beyond the point of being sellable, you're going to go bust pretty damned quick.

Rumours are starting to emerge that Boris Johnson and Ursula van der Leyen will make one last attempt to hammer out some sort of agreement...... perhaps along the lines of inserting a clause that ensures a review of the arrangements in 2030 might be acceptable to both sides.

Such a clause would enable Johnson to claim his victory.... which is what his intransigence is really all about (boy, does he need something he can call a win) and it will ensure that in ten years time, when Johnson is history and some sort of sanity and realism might be returning to Britain, the fishing issue will be much more resolvable to the EU's liking.

Boris needs a short term fix

The EU are prepared to play the long game.

We shall see how this pans out.

Yeah, I'm getting the same