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shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#391New Post! Dec 14, 2019 @ 11:27:44
@nooneinparticular Said

As far as I know, Corbyn never said he changed his mind, so I have to take him at his word what he believes about remaining and leaving. Which leads to my earlier statements.

Political pragmatism only works if you don't show your hand too early. If you take a stance and then retract it for a more pragmatic one, it comes off as weak and wish-washy. Then again, I never said that Corbyn was a smart man, so who knows.


I saw JC interviewed AFTER the election results had come in and he still wouldn't say what his position on Brexit was!!!
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#392New Post! Dec 14, 2019 @ 11:31:18
@chaski Said

Yes.

Agreed.

But funny how he won by moving to the left.

He didnt move to the left. He has always been towards the left on issues like health, but he is more traditionally conservative on issues like law and order. However, the key factor without a doubt was Brexit. It wasn't the only factor but it was the key factor...esp in the midlands, the north and in Cymru.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#393New Post! Dec 14, 2019 @ 12:43:11
@nooneinparticular Said

And what about a year ago? Or two? You're telling me that the Tories decision to hold a referendum and Corbyn's apparent 'change of heart' had nothing to do with each other?

Only JC knows the answer to that question.

@nooneinparticular Said

When the Tories proclaimed that they would fight to the bitter end for a good deal, I don't think no deal was what they had in mind.

Firstly they never said they would fight to the bitter end for a good deal. They said that "the negotiations will undoubtedly be tough." Not the same thing. I don't think "the negotiations will undoubtedly be tough" meant they would just accept constantly extending with no end in sight. I don't think constantly extending would be consistent with stating that "no deal is better than a bad deal".

Anyway, every rebel Tory who crossed the floor and had the whip removed, and stood as independents or for other parties, were soundly defeated. The people who elected them in 2017 when the MPs in question promised to take the UK out of the EU, out of the customs union, and out of the single market (deal or NO DEAL) were angry. If you listened to interviews in their constituencies the people who had voted for the rebels in 2017 felt betrayed (and quite rightly so).

@nooneinparticular Said

The facts are what they are, no matter what the 'majority opinion' is regarding them.

And you seem absolutely determined to ignore the facts.

@nooneinparticular Said

Gee, it's almost as if voting on a bill allowed everyone to catalyze their opinions on the options on the table and make a clearer decision. The big Brexit debate was ultimately between Johnsons bill deal on the table (voting in favor of a bill), Labour's secret plans (voting on a different direction), and Lib Dems revocation (voting against a bill).

Nope. They were clear in 2016 and were just as clear when they voted yesterday. The people yesterday were NOT voting on a bill. BJ's WA simply states what shall happen during the transition phase. When people voted leave they were voting for what happens BEYOND this time, and at this stage NO one knows what this will look like. In 2016 people voted to leave the EU on the understanding this meant leaving the customs union and the single market as a minimum. Nothing has changed. The nature of Brexit is still to be decided, and wont be decided for some 12 months. So yesterdays vote most definitely was not btw BJ's WA, JC's unknown WA and revoking Article 50. If you listened to people being interviewed over the past 4 weeks it was a battle btw leaving (not BJ's WA) and remaining (either under Labour's clayton's referendum or the LD's determination to revoke Article 50).

@nooneinparticular Said

The US has been walking down this path for a long time, but if the UK and Australia think they can make a better go of it while ignoring all the history and experience the US has gained, then be my guest.

Australia and the UK are not the same as the US. They have a different Parliamentary system, different traditions and conventions etc etc etc. The way we and the Brits run referendums works just fine...just so long as MPs respect the people's vote (which they have always done previously).

By the way, in the UK a referendum gives voters the choice between TWO options. So how could you only allow people the choice between remain and a WA struck by MPs who didn't want the country to leave in the first place? And how could the people have voted on a bill in 2016 re leaving the EU? The EU wouldnt consider negotiating a WA until the UK invoked Article 50. If you invoke Article 50 the default position becomes leave after 2 years unless the EU agree to an extension. So to vote on a bill MPs would have to voluntarily agree to revoke Article 50 without knowing if that's what people wanted, and then negotiate a WA with the EU, with both parties knowing that any WA would be subject to a people's vote. But of course, as stated earlier, any WA would only be about what would happen in a TRANSITION period and would NOT be about what happens to the UK's relationship with the EU once this period is finished. Just makes no sense, and I couldnt possibly see the EU agreeing to it.

Anyway, you like how your referendums are run, I prefer how ours are. And I think most people in the UK would prefer how they do things as well.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#394New Post! Dec 14, 2019 @ 12:59:08
@chaski Said

...funny how he won by moving to the left.


Funnier how the left view him as a FAR RIGHT EXTREMIST.
gakINGKONG On October 18, 2022




, Florida
#395New Post! Dec 14, 2019 @ 15:22:44
@shadowen Said

Funnier how the left view him as a FAR RIGHT EXTREMIST.



At least now the UK can finish this Brexit business and move on with their lives. Best wishes to all.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#396New Post! Dec 14, 2019 @ 18:07:02
@nooneinparticular Said

Yes sorry. Every time I see JC I always think James Cameron before Jeremy Corbyn, and I don't know why.



I’ve been reading this last few pages as Jesus Christ. So confusing.

International politics not my strong point.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#397New Post! Dec 14, 2019 @ 18:22:56
@gakINGKONG Said

At least now the UK can finish this Brexit business and move on with their lives. Best wishes to all.



But it's NOT the end of Brexit. Not by a long way.

Sure, it will get Brexit over the finishing line in as much as UK will leave the EU, but then the really hard part begins.

It won't all be 'done' on 31 December. Johnson maintains that he will be able to negotiate a beneficial Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with Brussels by December 2020. This is seriously misleading. The shortest FTA the EU has ever negotiated was with South Korea; this took two and a half years with a further 18 months for approval and ratification. The FTA between the EU and Canada, often cited as a model for the UK, took 9 years to negotiate and will take another 7 years to implement.

Once the UK leaves the EU nothing from the old agreement will apply. We will have to negotiate from the bottom, brick by brick. British and EU negotiators will have to go through thousands of tariff settings to determine the customs duty and technical arrangements which will apply to each product. Companies, unions, investors, farmers, fishers, environmentalists and consumers will lobby intensely throughout the negotiations. The profitability of some of Britain’s most dynamic businesses depends on the technical rules applied in their core market – the EU.

Johnson’s claim that the talks will go quickly because they will be limited to goods is questionable. Services account for over 80 per cent of UK jobs. Many services are embedded in goods and cannot be kept out of the FTA if the UK’s complex just-in-time supply chains are to survive.

EU countries will insist that their competitive farm exports be included. So, FTA negotiators will have to go through the minutiae of plant and animal health as well as tariffs and quotas.

The EU will insist on a “level playing field” for workers’ rights, climate action, environmental and data protection. All this will require lengthy talks and consultations with interested parts of society.

Any attempt to force the pace, in closed doors talks, would come to nought. The EU just won't buy it. Restrictive rules affecting EU residents, scientists, researchers or students in Britain – adopted in the name of taking back control – would weigh heavily on the FTA negotiations.

Furthermore, EU negotiators will call for access to UK fishing grounds by Spanish, French, German, and Danish fishing vessels to be maintained as a condition for opening European markets to UK fish exports.

Britain’s dwindling fisheries sector will be hard to placate if the government cedes to these demands. Other prickly issues, including Gibraltar’s future relations with Spain, are bound to be raised during the negotiations.

Once an FTA has been negotiated, both sides must sign and ratify it. The EU could, in theory, ratify a limited trade agreement without requiring votes in all 27 member states. But national capitals will insist on approving an agreement with a close neighbour and key trading partner like Britain.

Until recently, purely trade aspects of an agreement could be applied provisionally, pending ratification. But the new Commission President, Ursula von den Leyen, has promised that future trade agreements will only be applied provisionally once the European Parliament has given its consent. So, there are no short cuts.

The prime minister would do better to come clean with the British people on the complexity of the task ahead rather than face new accusations of duplicity when his promise that a trade deal with the EU will be concluded in 2020 comes to nought.

Brexit won't end on 31 December. It will be only just beginning.
gakINGKONG On October 18, 2022




, Florida
#398New Post! Dec 14, 2019 @ 19:26:04
@Jennifer1984 Said

But it's NOT the end of Brexit. Not by a long way.

Sure, it will get Brexit over the finishing line in as much as UK will leave the EU, but then the really hard part begins.

It won't all be 'done' on 31 December. Johnson maintains that he will be able to negotiate a beneficial Free Trade Agreement (FTA) with Brussels by December 2020. This is seriously misleading. The shortest FTA the EU has ever negotiated was with South Korea; this took two and a half years with a further 18 months for approval and ratification. The FTA between the EU and Canada, often cited as a model for the UK, took 9 years to negotiate and will take another 7 years to implement.

Once the UK leaves the EU nothing from the old agreement will apply. We will have to negotiate from the bottom, brick by brick. British and EU negotiators will have to go through thousands of tariff settings to determine the customs duty and technical arrangements which will apply to each product. Companies, unions, investors, farmers, fishers, environmentalists and consumers will lobby intensely throughout the negotiations. The profitability of some of Britain’s most dynamic businesses depends on the technical rules applied in their core market – the EU.

Johnson’s claim that the talks will go quickly because they will be limited to goods is questionable. Services account for over 80 per cent of UK jobs. Many services are embedded in goods and cannot be kept out of the FTA if the UK’s complex just-in-time supply chains are to survive.

EU countries will insist that their competitive farm exports be included. So, FTA negotiators will have to go through the minutiae of plant and animal health as well as tariffs and quotas.

The EU will insist on a “level playing field” for workers’ rights, climate action, environmental and data protection. All this will require lengthy talks and consultations with interested parts of society.

Any attempt to force the pace, in closed doors talks, would come to nought. The EU just won't buy it. Restrictive rules affecting EU residents, scientists, researchers or students in Britain – adopted in the name of taking back control – would weigh heavily on the FTA negotiations.

Furthermore, EU negotiators will call for access to UK fishing grounds by Spanish, French, German, and Danish fishing vessels to be maintained as a condition for opening European markets to UK fish exports.

Britain’s dwindling fisheries sector will be hard to placate if the government cedes to these demands. Other prickly issues, including Gibraltar’s future relations with Spain, are bound to be raised during the negotiations.

Once an FTA has been negotiated, both sides must sign and ratify it. The EU could, in theory, ratify a limited trade agreement without requiring votes in all 27 member states. But national capitals will insist on approving an agreement with a close neighbour and key trading partner like Britain.

Until recently, purely trade aspects of an agreement could be applied provisionally, pending ratification. But the new Commission President, Ursula von den Leyen, has promised that future trade agreements will only be applied provisionally once the European Parliament has given its consent. So, there are no short cuts.

The prime minister would do better to come clean with the British people on the complexity of the task ahead rather than face new accusations of duplicity when his promise that a trade deal with the EU will be concluded in 2020 comes to nought.

Brexit won't end on 31 December. It will be only just beginning.


Always look on the bright side of life. Pip pip.

Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#399New Post! Dec 14, 2019 @ 19:56:48
It doesn't matter whether I look on the "bright side of life" or not. What I'm pointing out is that those who say it is all going to be over now are wrong.

All that will happen soon is the act of leaving the EU itself. Britain's future as a trading nation is far from decided and is very, very uncertain.

Brexit could also put lives at risk.


Example:

Britain doesn't have a facility to produce a radioisotope called Technetium-99m (Tc-99m). It's the most commonly used isotope in the diagnosis of many cancers and other serious conditions and it has a half life for gamma emissions of 6 hours.

We currently buy it in from EU sources (Belgium, Holland, France and Poland) and it's one of those "Just in time" supplies that rely on an easy passage through customs.

If the supply line is disrupted, then by the time the isotope arrives at its point of need it may have degraded to a point where it would be useless. This could mean the diagnosis of many serious cancers and other conditions may be compromised.

I believe one British business is attempting to build the the machines necessary to make this isotope but there has been no announcement yet as to when it will be operational..... if ever....

This is just one example. Would you like me to list others? I can, you know.

Brexit plays Russian roulette with people's lives.
gakINGKONG On October 18, 2022




, Florida
#400New Post! Dec 15, 2019 @ 00:50:16
@Jennifer1984 Said

It doesn't matter whether I look on the "bright side of life" or not. What I'm pointing out is that those who say it is all going to be over now are wrong.

All that will happen soon is the act of leaving the EU itself. Britain's future as a trading nation is far from decided and is very, very uncertain.

Brexit could also put lives at risk.


Example:

Britain doesn't have a facility to produce a radioisotope called Technetium-99m (Tc-99m). It's the most commonly used isotope in the diagnosis of many cancers and other serious conditions and it has a half life for gamma emissions of 6 hours.

We currently buy it in from EU sources (Belgium, Holland, France and Poland) and it's one of those "Just in time" supplies that rely on an easy passage through customs.

If the supply line is disrupted, then by the time the isotope arrives at its point of need it may have degraded to a point where it would be useless. This could mean the diagnosis of many serious cancers and other conditions may be compromised.

I believe one British business is attempting to build the the machines necessary to make this isotope but there has been no announcement yet as to when it will be operational..... if ever....

This is just one example. Would you like me to list others? I can, you know.

Brexit plays Russian roulette with people's lives.


If you don't submit your writings to the local paper (is that even a thing?) you ought to consider it.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#401New Post! Dec 15, 2019 @ 13:56:31
I see operation yellow snow is still being pushed
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#402New Post! Dec 15, 2019 @ 14:11:05
@gakINGKONG Said

If you don't submit your writings to the local paper (is that even a thing?) you ought to consider it.


Maybe the 'Morning Star' or 'The Clarion'...
Leon On March 30, 2024




San Diego, California
#403New Post! Dec 15, 2019 @ 15:19:15
@shadowen Said

Re Brexit. The WA should now pass unamended fairly quickly and the UK should be out by the end of January. But the biggest, the most important fight still remains. The WA is about what happens in the transition stage. The yet to be negotiated FTA is what happens after that. There is still a lot to play out re Brexit.

As for your question re the referendum. I would see the GE result as a very strong affirmation of the 2016 people's vote. The people have made it very clear that they want to leave the EU. Now finally they should be listened to.


Thank you. And yes it seems like it.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#404New Post! Dec 15, 2019 @ 16:22:51
@Leon Said

Thank you. And yes it seems like it.


As far as the election result and Brexit goes I think the following quote by Churchill is quite appropriate:

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#405New Post! Dec 17, 2019 @ 23:41:32
@shadowen Said

I saw JC interviewed AFTER the election results had come in and he still wouldn't say what his position on Brexit was!!!


Which only lends more credence to my scenario does it not? If fence sitting was supposed to be some smokescreen to lure in voters, then after the election was done there would have been no need to continue the charade, right?
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