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Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

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GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#1New Post! Jan 04, 2011 @ 21:50:02
Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

At the end of the day, with a God who hides, the only good way to ascertain if he would be real or not is by his morality. This assumes that having a sense of morality is good and not having it is not and that a God would be good.

The pivotal question for God?s existence is;---- would a good God create a place like hell?

The definition of hell here is the one of eternal fire and torture with no chance of reprieve.
IOW. The traditional hell

To help me determine if there was a real Bible God or not, I asked and answered a few simple question for myself.

1. Is it morals and good justice for a soul to be able to sin for a finite time and then have to suffer torture for infinity?

2. Is it good morals and justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good morals and justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. Is it good morals and justice to keep a soul alive in hell instead of killing it for mercies sake?

I answered no to all of the above and determined that there is no way in hell that a hell would be a moral construct and that a good God would not create such a place. If hell exists then Bible God cannot if he is a good God.

If you answered no, as I did, then the existence of Bible God also gives a no answer.

If you answered yes to any of the above then let us examine your reasons for thinking that God would create this, to you, moral construct called hell.

Please justify your yes and show what I am to give a rebuttal to and let us try to reason together. This is mostly impossible from what I have seen and experienced but having kept this O P fairly simple, I am hopping that we can.


Regards
DL


PS. The next post is to give you a glimpse of what others think of some of these issues and to stimulate thought. There is quite a bit of it and it is there for reference only.
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#2New Post! Jan 04, 2011 @ 21:50:17
On hell.

Better to shovel coal in hell than to spend eternity watching friends, neighbors and our children in torture and flame forever.
Only a sick mind would conceive of such a situation or wish it upon anyone. That is why God would not do such because then, heaven would be hell.
If those in heaven did not go insane then they could not have once been human or good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZM3FXlLMug

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE_TWhzG-p0&feature=related


Is God good?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7CkQaQpU&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9FKn4rKXEY&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTpJ8PGT2yY&feature=related


Satan?s history.

https://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat2.htm

https://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat1.htm#menu

https://abcnews.go.com/nightline/faceoff -----About ? way down the page.




O T, N T, Jesus and hell.

https://www.youtube.com/user/TurpisHaereticus#p/u/2/k88ntaUXP2c


What the Bible says.

Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

By any definition, sendind souls to hell is overcoming evil with evil and hell in this sense is not Biblical.

Regards
DL
8FlOz On August 24, 2012
S.W.E.D





Fairbanks, Alaska
#3New Post! Jan 04, 2011 @ 21:54:41
The best way to control a human is fear, so what better way to force someone to believe the way you want them to other than threating them with eternal suffering and agony than Hell? There is none. Threaten them with incomprehensible pain that lasts for eternity, and sucker them in witht he hopes of going to a place thats all happy days, with no such thing as suffering.
Spinkiegirl On August 18, 2018




Chicago, Illinois
#4New Post! Jan 04, 2011 @ 23:30:11
@GreatestIam2 Said

Belief in God hinges on the reality and morality of hell.

At the end of the day, with a God who hides, the only good way to ascertain if he would be real or not is by his morality. This assumes that having a sense of morality is good and not having it is not and that a God would be good.

The pivotal question for God?s existence is;---- would a good God create a place like hell?

The definition of hell here is the one of eternal fire and torture with no chance of reprieve.
IOW. The traditional hell

To help me determine if there was a real Bible God or not, I asked and answered a few simple question for myself.

1. Is it morals and good justice for a soul to be able to sin for a finite time and then have to suffer torture for infinity?

2. Is it good morals and justice for small or mediocre sinners to have to bear the same sentence as Hitler, Stalin and other genocidal maniacs?

Punishment is usually only given to change attitude or actions and cause the sinner to repent.

3. Is it good morals and justice to continue to torture a soul in hell if no change in attitude or actions are to result?

4. Is it good morals and justice to keep a soul alive in hell instead of killing it for mercies sake?

I answered no to all of the above and determined that there is no way in hell that a hell would be a moral construct and that a good God would not create such a place. If hell exists then Bible God cannot if he is a good God.

If you answered no, as I did, then the existence of Bible God also gives a no answer.

If you answered yes to any of the above then let us examine your reasons for thinking that God would create this, to you, moral construct called hell.

Please justify your yes and show what I am to give a rebuttal to and let us try to reason together. This is mostly impossible from what I have seen and experienced but having kept this O P fairly simple, I am hopping that we can.


Regards
DL


PS. The next post is to give you a glimpse of what others think of some of these issues and to stimulate thought. There is quite a bit of it and it is there for reference only.



As a practicing Christian woman.....it is MY belief that God forgives ALL sins accept one.....and that is if you denounce Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior! From what I understand and believe, that is an unforgivable sin. Now what one's beliefs are when they are living, is their choice.....what I believe, is that God is just in all that He does! Can't really comment on the "hell" part of your question because I don't know much about it!
tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#5New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 11:16:27
@Spinkiegirl Said

As a practicing Christian woman.....it is MY belief that God forgives ALL sins accept one.....and that is if you denounce Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior! From what I understand and believe, that is an unforgivable sin. Now what one's beliefs are when they are living, is their choice.....what I believe, is that God is just in all that He does! Can't really comment on the "hell" part of your question because I don't know much about it!



As I have argued before, given that God wills the very best for us, and given that we ourselves want the very best for ourselves, then it would seem that no one could make a FULLY INFORMED decision against God. And if not FULLY INFORMED, then the free will defence of hell falls down.

For me, this would apply to the above, given that to reject that which is (by the definition of Christians) the very best for us would imply that one is not fully informed.

This argument is developed in many ways in Thomas Talbott's book "The Inescapeable Love of God", where he shows how a doctrine of Universalism (all are eventually saved) is compatible with the Biblical teaching as found in the NT, especially the writingso of St Paul.

Talbott also argues that justice and mercy are one and the same thing, which is a related issue.

Obviously, one does not need to agree with Talbott.

All the best
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#6New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 12:56:30
@8FlOz Said

The best way to control a human is fear, so what better way to force someone to believe the way you want them to other than threating them with eternal suffering and agony than Hell? There is none. Threaten them with incomprehensible pain that lasts for eternity, and sucker them in witht he hopes of going to a place thats all happy days, with no such thing as suffering.


What!
If you are saying that religions would lie and con us out of our $$ for salvation------you would be right.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#7New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 13:01:45
@Spinkiegirl Said

As a practicing Christian woman.....it is MY belief that God forgives ALL sins accept one.....and that is if you denounce Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior! From what I understand and believe, that is an unforgivable sin. Now what one's beliefs are when they are living, is their choice.....what I believe, is that God is just in all that He does! Can't really comment on the "hell" part of your question because I don't know much about it!


Punishment is a huge issue.

You follow a God without knowing how he punishes?

Smooth. Shallow as hell and showing that you are not thinking at all but smooth.
And for that warm fuzzy feeling you have, you will follow one who uses genocide on people.

Sounds like you are one sick puppy.

Is genocide not evil enough for you to reject your sugar daddy?

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On January 06, 2023




Ottawa, Canada
#8New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 13:07:07
@tariki Said

As I have argued before, given that God wills the very best for us, and given that we ourselves want the very best for ourselves, then it would seem that no one could make a FULLY INFORMED decision against God. And if not FULLY INFORMED, then the free will defence of hell falls down.

For me, this would apply to the above, given that to reject that which is (by the definition of Christians) the very best for us would imply that one is not fully informed.

This argument is developed in many ways in Thomas Talbott's book "The Inescapeable Love of God", where he shows how a doctrine of Universalism (all are eventually saved) is compatible with the Biblical teaching as found in the NT, especially the writingso of St Paul.

Talbott also argues that justice and mercy are one and the same thing, which is a related issue.

Obviously, one does not need to agree with Talbott.

All the best


Universalism is logical for an omnipotent God.

Justice and merci I do not see as the same.

Regards
DL
BozieFozie On May 19, 2022
Life's a Beach





Paradise, Florida
#9New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 13:10:58
@GreatestIam2 Said

Punishment is a huge issue.

You follow a God without knowing how he punishes?

Smooth. Shallow as hell and showing that you are not thinking at all but smooth.
And for that warm fuzzy feeling you have, you will follow one who uses genocide on people.

Sounds like you are one sick puppy.

Is genocide not evil enough for you to reject your sugar daddy?

Regards
DL



First of all, on topic, haven't you started like at least 5 other threads that deal with this very same subject, DL????

Second, you're personally attacking a friend of mine. I will report your posts if you continue as it violates TOS on this site!!!
tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#10New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 16:36:39
@GreatestIam2 Said

Universalism is logical for an omnipotent God.

Justice and merci I do not see as the same.

Regards
DL



DL,

Talbot's full argument goes on for many pages, and entails descriptions of various Christain theologians etc, as well as biblical passages. I'm not able to do full justice to it.

Suffice to say that at its heart, the argument rests upon the idea that any punishment rendered by a loving deity would necessarily be remedial, and that given God''s omnipotence, would be fully reconciling and restorative. Therefore the "justice" of any punishment would necessarily result in redemption. This in itself can make one reflect that therefore "forgiveness" is ultimate, though not the same as justice.

However, Talbott argues further that a human being, as a child of God, and having been bought into existence by God - who is ultimately responsible for all things -actually deserves forgiveness, just as a child born to human parents is entitlted to parental care.

All this, as opposed to an Augustian outcome that argues that the damned in Hell witness eternally to God's Justice, and the saved (the elect) to God's mercy. And never the twain shall meet!! That the two attributes of the Divinity are totally TWO.

All this obviously involves how one ses the atonement, and the meaning of the Incarnation itself. But perhaps enough.......my head is beginning to ache..........

All the best
Spinkiegirl On August 18, 2018




Chicago, Illinois
#11New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 21:12:59
@GreatestIam2 Said

Punishment is a huge issue.

You follow a God without knowing how he punishes?

Smooth. Shallow as hell and showing that you are not thinking at all but smooth.
And for that warm fuzzy feeling you have, you will follow one who uses genocide on people.

Sounds like you are one sick puppy.

Is genocide not evil enough for you to reject your sugar daddy?

Regards
DL


I follow a God I have not seen either.....still doesn't make ANY sense to me why you choose to talk to me like that! I wasn't mean to you...so why be mean to me ? Why can't you accept what I say and leave it at that? I don't think you have right to judge me and say mean things to me like "i'am sick puppy" and calling God "my sugar daddy".....what's wrong me posting my feelings about God without you attacking me? GEEZ! Have a good evening.
Spinkiegirl On August 18, 2018




Chicago, Illinois
#12New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 21:15:39
@BozieFozie Said

First of all, on topic, haven't you started like at least 5 other threads that deal with this very same subject, DL????

Second, you're personally attacking a friend of mine. I will report your posts if you continue as it violates TOS on this site!!!



Thank you! I mean really....how is my believe in God harmful to the OP? I don't understand the attack!
deal1 On May 06, 2011
SECRET SQUIRREL





not of this earth,
#13New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 21:20:12
@BozieFozie Said

First of all, on topic, haven't you started like at least 5 other threads that deal with this very same subject, DL????

Second, you're personally attacking a friend of mine. I will report your posts if you continue as it violates TOS on this site!!!



He already did violate TOS...go for it....
noseycow On September 03, 2015
x dippy madam x





\"proud blackcountry wench\",
#14New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 21:29:46
my opinion on god, my OPINION, he is one sick f***er, he lets children be abused he lets people die young and in agony, he cant beat the devil eh? i think god, your god!!!!!!!!!! is having a good laugh ,
BozieFozie On May 19, 2022
Life's a Beach





Paradise, Florida
#15New Post! Jan 05, 2011 @ 21:44:30
@deal1 Said

He already did violate TOS...go for it....


Done!
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