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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#346New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 03:49:52
@Leon Said

Yes.

I think mainstream Democrats and Republicans can both agree on this. Both believe in capitalism.

The difference between each group is how much they believe government is responsible for in providing services such as what you described above, and, therefore, how much taxation is needed. Sure, there are extreme views from each group, but those are just that: extremes. Most Democrats are not Communists and most Republicans are not Libertarians.

And, what I was getting at initially before we got sidetracked on the origin and interpretation of a phrase, is that there is also difference in philosophy on where the weight of these tax dollars should come from. Democrats view that tax money should weigh more towards the rich in comparison to Republicans. Republicans feel that too much weight on the rich will stifle spending and resulting job growth. Democrats feel that less weight on the middle and poor class will spur the most spending and resulting job growth.

Studies tend to show the latter.

So calling AOC stupid for adhering to the latter seems a bit over-reactive to me, and instead seems to expose vitriolistic bias coming from reasons that have nothing to do with her stance, as it is simply in line with common, long-standing political philosophy.

Is it her age? The fact she is a female? And speaks out as such?


And there we go back to the original topic.... why so much attention to her. She not saying things different than others have been. Most of the new freshman are a little more progressive parts of the party. The democrat party has moved to the right— to reach the middle ground. It didn’t get that many votes from the republicans, and only upset the more progressive parts of the party...
But anyway, she’s not saying things that that outlandish and as freshman member, she should be pretty much Ignored, as usual if the republicans weren’t so obsessed with her.

Like seriously, the comments about her equal the number of comments about saving the unborn.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#347New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 03:53:19
I mean more AOC posts than Hillary. And this from peeps that still bring up Hillary everyday.
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#348New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 03:56:30
@DiscordTiger Said

And there we go back to the original topic.... why so much attention to her. She not saying things different than others have been. Most of the new freshman are a little more progressive parts of the party. The democrat party has moved to the right— to reach the middle ground. It didn’t get that many votes from the republicans, and only upset the more progressive parts of the party...
But anyway, she’s not saying things that that outlandish and as freshman member, she should be pretty much Ignored, as usual if the republicans weren’t so obsessed with her.

Like seriously, the comments about her equal the number of comments about saving the unborn.


I pretty much agree with you, here, as you word exactly what I was getting at.

Although her ideas on combatting climate change are fairly new. But I have no issues with that. Instead I would say, “Thank you! It’s about time..”
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#349New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 04:02:55
I really think if everyone wasn’t paying attention to her every move, her new green deal would have been like every other bill representatives put out that go nowhere because they don’t have support and connections yet.

Politics is a game, (not so much death as game of thrones, but a game nonetheless). She’s using the negative attention to her advantage. And that gives more power and reach to her voice.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#350New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 04:04:58
But yeah, it is nice to see someone talk about the environment.
Not every idea is great, but we should start talking about it seriously.
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#351New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 04:06:55
@DiscordTiger Said

But yeah, it is nice to see someone talk about the environment.
Not every idea is great, but we should start talking about it seriously.


Her Green New Deal is too skim on details. I’m just happy that someone sees the issue as urgently as she does and is trying her hardest to get something done about it.
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#352New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 04:08:52
And THAT probably is because she is young.

Everyone else in there will be dead before things get really dire.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#353New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 19:36:30
@Leon Said

Yes.

I think mainstream Democrats and Republicans can both agree on this. Both believe in capitalism.

The difference between each group is how much they believe government is responsible for in providing services such as what you described above, and, therefore, how much taxation is needed. Sure, there are extreme views from each group, but those are just that: extremes. Most Democrats are not Communists and most Republicans are not Libertarians.

And, what I was getting at initially before we got sidetracked on the origin and interpretation of a phrase, is that there is also difference in philosophy on where the weight of these tax dollars should come from. Democrats view that tax money should weigh more towards the rich in comparison to Republicans. Republicans feel that too much weight on the rich will stifle spending and resulting job growth. Democrats feel that less weight on the middle and poor class will spur the most spending and resulting job growth.

Studies tend to show the latter.


I am not a huge fan of Trump's tax policy to be honest (although not being American I have little knowledge of or interest in it). Cutting regulatory red tape I agree with 1000% - especially where the regulations strangle small business.

I don't think it is useful to cut taxes wholesale for multinational corporations. The argument that they will invest in the country as it offers competitive advantage has a little bit of merit, but there are other ways to achieve the same end that I think would be better (although given the choice I'd prefer not to have multinational corporate entities at all. They seem quite cancerous to me).

There is merit in offering tax incentives to companies for investing in jobs and other things (which is not what the "trickle down" strawman refers to as I understand it. That refers to just wholesale cutting regulation with no obligation on the business. I actually dislike and disagree with that theory - even when Trump uses it). So far as I know, the Amazon deal was that if they met specified targets on jobs and wages they would receive tax exemptions (or credits I think you call them), on X% of their gross profit. Again, I'm no expert, so could have the detail a bit wrong. However, that type of deal is one I support. But it is still not "trickle down" in action so far as I know).

Having heard AOC speak she did seem to be saying that the government was going to just give Amazon billions of dollars, as opposed to Amazon getting tax exemptions for meeting those targets.

These two things are not the same. It's almost as different as getting paid or getting robbed.

@Leon Said
So calling AOC stupid for adhering to the latter seems a bit over-reactive to me,


Possibly. But I don't say I think she's a dullard for this one thing alone. She has said some rather dumb stuff. Surely you don't think the girl is intelligent?

People who say, as she did recently, that those who attack my ideas are getting, "hung up on being factually correct rather than being morally right," are intriguing to me. Anyone claiming moral superiority over their political opponents is not a good person in my opinion (and to avoid being attacked pointlessly again, I will say this is not an absolute statement. There are people who are better and worse than me and her that agree and disagree with me and her).

@Leon Said
and instead seems to expose vitriolistic bias coming from reasons that have nothing to do with her stance, as it is simply in line with common, long-standing political philosophy.


I'm always happy to use hyperbole in discussing political figures, but there's no vitriol there. I have no animus for her. I do think she is a symptom of the greater malaise in the west these days. A bit of an entitled, uneducated clown who preaches hate but is barely capable of reflecting on, let alone acknowledging it. But as I said recently in a post here somewhere, she's young. If she has the right people around her she can learn. She could become good at her job. However, I think she needs to get away from the DNC for that to happen - they are a party preaching cancer as far as I can tell. The GOP seems to have corruption issues, but the DNC from this outsiders perspective seems to have made lies and corruption an art form.

As of right now she is ignorant... and I suspect remarkably racist and more than a little dishonest. Hence being in the DNC. But again, she can change.

@Leon Said
Is it her age? The fact she is a female? And speaks out as such?


I do not care about things like that. I am not on the left.

In the last couple of Australian elections I have campaigned for women candidates (plural), and gave my first preference to a woman on three of four ballots with women (plural), being in my top five preferences.

I care about the ideas. I support ideas I think are good, and oppose ideas I think are bad. You can have any genitalia you want, or none. What effect does it have on your ideas?

The only time I am concerned about what someone has between their legs or how old they are is when they're coming on to me at a bar..., and the level of concern is dependent on how long I've been at said bar
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#354New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 20:38:28
It's kind of lame to say in one section that any one claiming moral superiority over one party is not a good person, then to go on a few paragraphs later to throw away everything from an entire party as a cancer.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#355New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 21:21:30
@DiscordTiger Said

It's kind of lame to say in one section that any one claiming moral superiority over one party is not a good person, then to go on a few paragraphs later to throw away everything from an entire party as a cancer.


I said claiming you are morally superior to all your opponents is bad.

I didn't say that. I dislike the DNC fairly intensely. I'm not a fan of the GOP either, but at least they're not pandering to racists like the DNC (and no, I don't buy the 'Trump is racist' meme. I have listened him speaking directly far too much to buy it).

And again - none of these statements are absolutes. I don't say all DNC supporters are evil racists. Nor do I say all Trump supporters are paragons of moral virtue. Neither claim is valid. You get good and bad on both sides.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#356New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 22:19:40
yeah, I'm just saying the level of backtracking there is astonishing.
You aregue that you didnt mean all X, but then make sweeping generalizations. Over several different political/world view subjects you tend to disagree with. Its the way I perceive your conversation style.
It was an observation.
but hey, you do you.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#357New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 22:20:20
@bob_the_fisherman Said

There is merit in offering tax incentives to companies for investing in jobs and other things (which is not what the "trickle down" strawman refers to as I understand it. That refers to just wholesale cutting regulation of taxes with no obligation on the business.


Thought I should correct to avoid being pointlessly attacked again.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#358New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 22:36:46
@DiscordTiger Said

yeah, I'm just saying the level of backtracking there is astonishing.
You aregue that you didnt mean all X, but then make sweeping generalizations. Over several different political/world view subjects you tend to disagree with. Its the way I perceive your conversation style.
It was an observation.
but hey, you do you.


There is literally no backtracking happening. I say quite often that my statements are not absolutes and not intended that way. And if you read my statement I did not say every person who supports the DNC is cancer. How people read what I write is up to them.

You are free to mischaracterise me. I would think it's obvious that I am not saying everyone who disagrees with me is an idiot or psychopath, not least of all because I expressly say it at times, and I don't call you or Chaski idiots or psychopaths even though we disagree.

Where is the absolute statement in here;
"However, I think she needs to get away from the DNC for that to happen - they are a party preaching cancer as far as I can tell. The GOP seems to have corruption issues, but the DNC from this outsiders perspective seems to have made lies and corruption an art form."

If you read that as an absolute, you're right, it's your perception. It isn't there. You and I disagree, but I don't see that I need to look for the worst in every statement you make, or take it as some broad attack or an absolute.

This is a discussion forum not a thesis. I speak as an Aussie. I think we are far more chilled than you guys. We don't need to tiptoe around making sure we qualify every claim with statements of non absolutism. Maybe we just take for granted that those we disagree with aren't psychopaths. I don't know if its a culture thing or a Trump thing because he seems to have broken the logic and humor of a lot of people

Pretend I'm a human being and I think most people are normal people. I disagree with some, agree with others, and think there's good and bad, smart and dumb on all sides.

But to me, the DNC is still a cancer. No backtracking.
DiscordTiger On December 04, 2021
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#359New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 22:46:00
no, you havent call me or chaski personally idiots. And I am not even angry at you or anything. Frustrated at the miscommunication, at times, but not anything directed at your character.

So, what is the difference between saying "the GOP is racist" and "the DNC is a cancer". Aren't they two sides of the same sweeping brush?
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#360New Post! Mar 05, 2019 @ 22:53:02
@bob_the_fisherman Said

I am not a huge fan of Trump's tax policy to be honest (although not being American I have little knowledge of or interest in it). Cutting regulatory red tape I agree with 1000% - especially where the regulations strangle small business.

I don't think it is useful to cut taxes wholesale for multinational corporations. The argument that they will invest in the country as it offers competitive advantage has a little bit of merit, but there are other ways to achieve the same end that I think would be better (although given the choice I'd prefer not to have multinational corporate entities at all. They seem quite cancerous to me).

There is merit in offering tax incentives to companies for investing in jobs and other things (which is not what the "trickle down" strawman refers to as I understand it. That refers to just wholesale cutting regulation with no obligation on the business. I actually dislike and disagree with that theory - even when Trump uses it). So far as I know, the Amazon deal was that if they met specified targets on jobs and wages they would receive tax exemptions (or credits I think you call them), on X% of their gross profit. Again, I'm no expert, so could have the detail a bit wrong. However, that type of deal is one I support. But it is still not "trickle down" in action so far as I know).

Having heard AOC speak she did seem to be saying that the government was going to just give Amazon billions of dollars, as opposed to Amazon getting tax exemptions for meeting those targets.

These two things are not the same. It's almost as different as getting paid or getting robbed.



Possibly. But I don't say I think she's a dullard for this one thing alone. She has said some rather dumb stuff. Surely you don't think the girl is intelligent?

People who say, as she did recently, that those who attack my ideas are getting, "hung up on being factually correct rather than being morally right," are intriguing to me. Anyone claiming moral superiority over their political opponents is not a good person in my opinion (and to avoid being attacked pointlessly again, I will say this is not an absolute statement. There are people who are better and worse than me and her that agree and disagree with me and her).



I'm always happy to use hyperbole in discussing political figures, but there's no vitriol there. I have no animus for her. I do think she is a symptom of the greater malaise in the west these days. A bit of an entitled, uneducated clown who preaches hate but is barely capable of reflecting on, let alone acknowledging it. But as I said recently in a post here somewhere, she's young. If she has the right people around her she can learn. She could become good at her job. However, I think she needs to get away from the DNC for that to happen - they are a party preaching cancer as far as I can tell. The GOP seems to have corruption issues, but the DNC from this outsiders perspective seems to have made lies and corruption an art form.

As of right now she is ignorant... and I suspect remarkably racist and more than a little dishonest. Hence being in the DNC. But again, she can change.



I do not care about things like that. I am not on the left.

In the last couple of Australian elections I have campaigned for women candidates (plural), and gave my first preference to a woman on three of four ballots with women (plural), being in my top five preferences.

I care about the ideas. I support ideas I think are good, and oppose ideas I think are bad. You can have any genitalia you want, or none. What effect does it have on your ideas?

The only time I am concerned about what someone has between their legs or how old they are is when they're coming on to me at a bar..., and the level of concern is dependent on how long I've been at said bar


Sounds like we are closer than I thought on economic policy philosophy.

Although I am curious as to what level of regulation would be acceptable to you, if any. I believe that anti-trust laws (a form of regulation) are important, for starters. I also believe there are times when corporate interest can become so huge and influential as to have a detriment to the health and viability of a country, such as lobbying influence in Washington, disregard for fossil fuel usage and the effects of global warming, and insurance industry affect on health care availability and pricing. So, in my mind, regulation has some purpose when the freedoms of others are negatively affected. But things like increased minimum wage probably iron themselves out without need for legislation.

As far as taxation, I’ll go with the studies, and say that weighted tiers above a cost-of-living wage is probably better than the trickle down philosophy of taxation, as far as spurring vs stifling spending and earning.

However, on spending that tax money, welfare, as always, could probably do with reform, and our social security system, while it had good intentions and was supposed to be a separately-funded and managed program from our regular treasury, it has become a debt-inducing mess. So, for the most part, people probably should be allowed to manage their own finances, and sometimes a kick in the butt is better than a helping hand in that regard. However, there is a certain segment that simply cannot help themselves, and they should be cared for.
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