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pissyjoey On January 21, 2007




Midwest City, Oklahoma
#16New Post! Jan 14, 2006 @ 18:15:59
I don't see how you guys think that discrimination AGAINST minorities doesn't still exist... Reiko, you were involved in one of those discussions... did you just ignore what was said and type your own right wing nonsense? That is what must be so convenient about being a simple minded conservative: you can base your thoughts on a cliched statement and ignore reality altogether.

Here, I'll sum up for you what is true in America today and then you can be a good conservative and ignore the truth and continue with your ignorant blathering.
This is discrimination today...
Criminal system: blacks are given stiffer prison sentences for committing the same crime as a white person.
Housing: blacks are consistently "steered" away from affluent and white neighborhoods by realtors regardless of their income.
Employment: Blacks with identical qualifications as whites are far less likely to be offered jobs as are thier white counterparts.
Health care: blacks are less likely than whites to have life saving procedures suggested to them by their doctors, regardless of their ability to pay for such procedures.
Education: Identical research papers that are sent to professors with a black sounding name, "Jamal Jackson" for example get a lower score than when that same paper is sent with a white sounding name "Jeff White." Inner city kids get a pittance of the school funding that white kids enjoy.

Blacks and women get paid less than white men and are the first to get fired when workers get laid off and you are crying about affirmative action?

The facts go on and on and on and I would encourage you to check my statements for yourself. By all means, look into it. But I know you won't because finding truth is a struggle and it is too easy to believe banal conservative generalities.

I know that it is a mistake to write this stuff to you, Reiko. You are too far removed from truth for my words to sink in. I read your posts and I fear for the world. I hope that someday you broaden your horizons, open up a book, and stop listening to whatever fool is pouring ignorance into your mind.
shaggyjebus On August 26, 2008

Deleted



Goodlettsville, Tennessee
#17New Post! Jan 14, 2006 @ 20:58:24
I don't think affirmative action is about racism, per se. It is supposed to be about eliminating racism by making people come together. Lock people in a room together and make them get along.

Without affimative action, wouldn't everyone just be seperated? People might have to hire a certain number of blacks now, whether they are qualified or not, but isn't that better than a company not hiring any black people at all?

There are problems with the system, but we have to ask: which is the lesser of two evils? Will people accept different races and such without affirmative action? I don't believe they will, not just yet. Like everyone has said, racism is too rampant. Especially in the workforce and in schools.
rocket325 On August 07, 2015




Northwest, Connecticut
#18New Post! Jan 15, 2006 @ 14:55:05
Reiko; you make very valid points.
Preferential treatment and quotas are not the answer.
Lowering standards and set-asides taint the success of minorities who never needed them.
Don't expect too much support for your insightful posts on race here. I understand your frustration, after being passed over for promotion on my Dept. by lower scoring minorities.
The attitude among non-whites when exams were posted was; "why study, we are guaranteed a set number of positions!"
kebab_boy On April 05, 2011




Bristol, United Kingdom
#19New Post! Jan 15, 2006 @ 16:50:38
You don't fight racism with racism, so if that's what affirmative action does then I'm certainly against it. I think we need to forget the past and stop trying to make up for stuff that happened two hundred or more years ago like the slavery thing that noone alive today can have experienced.

This affirmative action sounds to me rather like something the police were trying to do here in the UK; employing people of minority backgrounds, even if a white applicant for the job could do it better. I am not saying that is always the case, of course it isn't. But what I think they have to do is employ the person who is best qualified. The only way to fight racism is to stop taking in to account people's colour, and start thinking of everybody as just people all the same.
bravo_zulu On December 07, 2006




New Sodom, Indiana
#20New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 02:06:40
@pissyjoey Said
That is what must be so convenient about being a simple minded conservative: you can base your thoughts on a cliched statement and ignore reality altogether.


Wow, that's very open minded of you. Thanks for enlightening me.

You are setting up a straw man and then knocking it down like you're doing something big. No one here, certainly not myself, denies the fact racism still exist. We disagree with the way to remedy it.

My nephew, whom I watch on occasion, is biracial, and it angers me when people stare at him, my daughters, and I when we go to the store or someplace similar. The "why does that white guy have a black baby?" stares piss me off, but I don't think the government should be sent in to reeducate people or force my views of race on them. I just ignore it and pass on.
pissyjoey On January 21, 2007




Midwest City, Oklahoma
#21New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 07:06:32
@bravo_zulu Said
...I don't think the government should be sent in to reeducate people or force my views of race on them. I just ignore it and pass on.


It would be nice if I could just ignore the fact that the government has sanctioned racist policies against minorities for the past several hundred years yet when ONE government policy (affirmative action) is implemented, Americans come out of the woodwork to condemn it.

I wish that ignoring injustice made it go away. The "barry your head in the sand" approach to abolishing discrimination... Good idea.
reiko On March 27, 2006

Deleted



New York, New York
#22New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 18:00:51
@pissyjoey Said

Criminal system: blacks are given stiffer prison sentences for committing the same crime as a white person.

That might be the only "truth" in your whole statement. lol

@pissyjoey Said

Housing: blacks are consistently "steered" away from affluent and white neighborhoods by realtors regardless of their income.
Employment: Blacks with identical qualifications as whites are far less likely to be offered jobs as are thier white counterparts.
Health care: blacks are less likely than whites to have life saving procedures suggested to them by their doctors, regardless of their ability to pay for such procedures.
Education: Identical research papers that are sent to professors with a black sounding name, "Jamal Jackson" for example get a lower score than when that same paper is sent with a white sounding name "Jeff White." Inner city kids get a pittance of the school funding that white kids enjoy.

Blacks and women get paid less than white men and are the first to get fired when workers get laid off and you are crying about affirmative action?
All women get paid less than men for doing the same job not just black women.

@pissyjoey Said

The facts go on and on and on and I would encourage you to check my statements for yourself. By all means, look into it. But I know you won't because finding truth is a struggle and it is too easy to believe banal conservative generalities.

I know that it is a mistake to write this stuff to you, Reiko. You are too far removed from truth for my words to sink in. I read your posts and I fear for the world. I hope that someday you broaden your horizons, open up a book, and stop listening to whatever fool is pouring ignorance into your mind.

Like i said maybe one thing you posted had some truth to it. The rest is just liberal fantasy that might have been true 40 years ago but today it's just wishful thinking on your part.
reiko On March 27, 2006

Deleted



New York, New York
#23New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 18:05:47
@pissyjoey Said
It would be nice if I could just ignore the fact that the government has sanctioned racist policies against minorities for the past several hundred years yet when ONE government policy (affirmative action) is implemented, Americans come out of the woodwork to condemn it.

I wish that ignoring injustice made it go away. The "barry your head in the sand" approach to abolishing discrimination... Good idea.


So telling me I'm too stupid to compete with white people is the answer?
Thanks for the racist view.
bravo_zulu On December 07, 2006




New Sodom, Indiana
#24New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 20:38:13
@pissyjoey Said
It would be nice if I could just ignore the fact that the government has sanctioned racist policies against minorities for the past several hundred years yet when ONE government policy (affirmative action) is implemented, Americans come out of the woodwork to condemn it.

I wish that ignoring injustice made it go away. The "barry your head in the sand" approach to abolishing discrimination... Good idea.


First off, I didn't say that society should ignore racism or that ignoring it would make it go away. I said that what I do is ignore it because that?s what is best for me and the children in my charge at the time.

Secondly, you make it sound as though affirmative action is the only government policy on race that has been criticized by Americans. That?s historically untrue. Just one example would be the abolitionist newspapers published in the north, not just the one that preceded the Civil War. Such papers were around before the Revolution.

Finally, you basically conceded Reiko's point in your last post. In effect you said "hey, this policy is ok because the beneficiaries are different this time." You can not consistently argue that it?s wrong for the government enact policies that hurt minorities but hurt the majority yet its ok for the government to enact policies that hurt the majority but help minorities. Racism, even with good intent, is wrong.

I also think it is very telling that you didn't say anything to address what I said in my last post, i.e. the government shouldn't be reeducating people or forcing my views of race on them. It's a lot easier to go off on a tangent than it is to actually address what I say.
pissyjoey On January 21, 2007




Midwest City, Oklahoma
#25New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 20:48:00
@bravo_zulu Said
I also think it is very telling that you didn't say anything to address what I said in my last post, i.e. the government shouldn't be reeducating people or forcing my views of race on them. It's a lot easier to go off on a tangent than it is to actually address what I say.


Fine, I disagree with you. And there is a historical reason to back this up. The majority of people in the south supported segregating blacks from whites. But the federal government integrated it anyway. Was this wrong? Was it wrong for the government to force its views on the south or to attempt to reeducate them?

So you and Reiko would say that desegregation was a racist policy and was wrong. There is little difference between desegregation of yesterday and affirmative action of today. I would have been fighting for equality and where would you have been? Telling me that desegregation supports racism?

Of course there has been more than one policy that attempts to fight discrimination. I was exaggerating. But where would you have been during each of these times? Would you have fought against the anti-slavery movement? Would you have fought against civil rights legislation? Against voting rights for blacks? When it is obvious that discrimination still exists, what is the remedy? If not laws that attemtpt to eradicate discrimination, what then? Legislation helped in the past, why not today?
mrmentalist On February 22, 2006

Deleted



#26New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 20:51:22
So telling me I'm too stupid to compete with white people is the answer?
Thanks for the racist view.


cheer up you winning
bravo_zulu On December 07, 2006




New Sodom, Indiana
#27New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 22:03:48
@pissyjoey Said
Fine, I disagree with you. And there is a historical reason to back this up. The majority of people in the south supported segregating blacks from whites. But the federal government integrated it anyway. Was this wrong? Was it wrong for the government to force its views on the south or to attempt to reeducate them?

So you and Reiko would say that desegregation was a racist policy and was wrong. There is little difference between desegregation of yesterday and affirmative action of today. I would have been fighting for equality and where would you have been? Telling me that desegregation supports racism?

Of course there has been more than one policy that attempts to fight discrimination. I was exaggerating. But where would you have been during each of these times? Would you have fought against the anti-slavery movement? Would you have fought against civil rights legislation? Against voting rights for blacks? When it is obvious that discrimination still exists, what is the remedy? If not laws that attemtpt to eradicate discrimination, what then? Legislation helped in the past, why not today?


You miss a crucial point. When the federal government desegregated the South it wasn't reeducating people or forcing my views on them. It was enforcing the Constitutioin, namely the 14th admendment, equal protection under the law. In effect the government was putting its own house in order.

Going to a private company and telling them they have to hire a certain number of people with a certain skin color is totally different.

I support government correcting its own sins. I will never support the government forcing a particular ideology on the masses, even if its one I agree with.

To imply that disagreeing with affirmative action is the same as disagreeing with abolition or the civil rights movement is completely idiotic. You seem to have an "either or" mentality that makes you think anybody who doesn't agree with you is racist, and that is simply wrong.

It's not the role of government to play the part of nanny to make sure we get along with each other. America will not eradicate racism by using some well intentioned, but fatally flawed, laws. We will eradicate racism on the individual level, and that is achieved via the evolution of our society. The government getting involved will only muddy up the waters.

I guess thats the key difference. You still want to approach the race problem by lumping people into groups, which only reinforces the "us vs. them" mentality. I'm a Jeffersonian liberal, I look at individuals as the fundamental unit of political and social action, not groups. After all what could be more nonracist then taking race out of the equation and to judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin, to paraphrase Martin Luther King?
reiko On March 27, 2006

Deleted



New York, New York
#28New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 22:16:45
@bravo_zulu Said

To imply that disagreeing with affirmative action is the same as disagreeing with abolition or the civil rights movement is completely idiotic. You seem to have an "either or" mentality that makes you think anybody who doesn't agree with you is racist, and that is simply wrong.

Exactly! According to pissyjoey if I'm agaisnt state sanctioned racism then I must be racist myself. It makes no sense. I'm a minority and I find the whole concept of special treatment based on my race to be offensive.
pissyjoey On January 21, 2007




Midwest City, Oklahoma
#29New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 22:44:44
@bravo_zulu Said

Going to a private company and telling them they have to hire a certain number of people with a certain skin color is totally different.

It's not the role of government to play the part of nanny to make sure we get along with each other. America will not eradicate racism by using some well intentioned, but fatally flawed, laws. We will eradicate racism on the individual level, and that is achieved via the evolution of our society. The government getting involved will only muddy up the waters.

After all what could be more nonracist then taking race out of the equation and to judge people by the content of their character, not the color of their skin, to paraphrase Martin Luther King?


Why is placing restrictions on private companies not good? Private companies in the south were no longer able to deny service to blacks... was that not good? Many industries have been forced to stop polluting lands. Why is it bad to force private companies to do the right thing?

But the government got involved with desegregation: did that muddy up the waters?

Taking race out of the equation would be ideal, sure. But to end programs that attemtp to level the playing field, while sooo many other racist policies are allowed to persist is a bad idea. Lets stop using race so much: like equal sentencing laws for whites and minorities, or equal education funding for whites and minorities, and equal employment opportunities for whites and minorities, etc. Discrimination against minorities is a fact of life in the workplace today, regardless of affirmative action. End the massive discrimination against minorities and then we can talk about judging people by the content of their character.
stumblinthrulife On April 16, 2008

Deleted



Lake Saint Louis, Missouri
#30New Post! Jan 16, 2006 @ 22:49:46
Ding ding! Return to your corners.

You both realise the aim of each of your arguments in the same, right? You both want *equality*.

Sure, you have different ideas about how it should come about, but before you call each other stupid or ignorant again, just dwell for 2 seconds on that common ground.

OK?

Seconds out, round 2!

Ding, ding!
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