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Affirmative Action; Do you agree with it?

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Kristy69 On September 14, 2014
Carly's Mommy





Underneath the Cyanide Sun....
#16New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 15:56:28
@fitzyp Said

I think my opinion on the subject has already been summed up by a cartoon in another thread (cheers Katie)



That's really not it at all.
No where does it say who's qualified to be "at the top" and who isn't.

If the black kid is better qualified, he should be there; regardless of race/gender.
If they both have the same, let's say GPA, then may the best man win.

Yeah, there probably is "under the table" discrimination going on, but that's really not the point I'm trying to make.
Kristy69 On September 14, 2014
Carly's Mommy





Underneath the Cyanide Sun....
#17New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 15:59:11
@40isnotsobad Said

People should be hired based on their abilities not skin color or anything else...


Bingo.

Period, end of.
WeNowSix On January 05, 2011

Deleted



Anaheim, California
#18New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:12:14
People who promote affirmative action have a noble objective, which they each discovered in their own way over the first half of the twentieth century. It has become an excuse for patronage and corruption, but still it was a noble objective.

The objective, born during the Enlightenment in the Declaration of Independence, declares that all men shall have pursuit of happiness. Or born during the Bronze Age in the Torah, a judge shall not fear a rich man nor pity a poor man.

Thurgood Marshall, a man who would later become a Supreme Court Justice, came to believe in the objective when a friend asked him to bring legal action for the NAACP. Marshall didn?t want to work with the NAACP, but he agreed to take a trip to see why his friend thought he could help with the objective.

During the trip, they arrived at a railroad station. Marshall had an orange in his hand as they left the train, and he gave the orange to a black boy who happened to be at the station. The boy tried to eat the orange as if it were an apple; and he threw it away, probably because orange peels don?t taste good. Marshall could not understand the boy?s reaction until the friend speculated that the boy had never seen an orange, so he did not know to remove the orange peel.

Marshall came to understand that some people in American society, especially some black people, could not ?pursue happiness? because they lived outside society.

Marshall?s career with the NAACP focused on ways to bring everyone, as the Greeks would say, ?to the Agora,? or as the Dutch might say, ?to the exchange.? The argument being that if some buyers and sellers are excluded, then no one gets a fair price.

Marshall argued Brown v Board of Education before the Supreme Court when Earl Warren had recently become Chief Justice. By coincidence, Warren was beginning to understand the objective.

Warren?s biographers think that his understanding of the objective began with his relationship with his chauffeur. Warren had lived in California where Mexicans and Japanese might have been lower on the social order than even black people, but he was shocked to learn how black people were excluded from society in Maryland and Virginia.

For example, not long after Warren became Chief Justice, he stayed at a resort, and one morning he found his chauffeur sleeping in the limo because the resort did not allow black people to stay at the resort. For Warren, this is supposed to have been an orange peel moment, which led him to find ways to bring everyone into the Agora.
Tako_400 On April 19, 2010
Keep Ya' Head Up


Deleted



Beirut, Lebanon
#19New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:28:24
We need to help minorities out. Calling that racism is false. It's only racism if you favor one race over another. It's not racism if you try to equal out all races.
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#20New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:34:05
@someone_else Said

Yes, I agree with that part.

What Kristy's talking about is Affirmative Action, where an employer is required to hire a certain number (or percentage) of "minority" employees. Minorities include women and people of 'color' - which would be anything but white. Guess who that discriminates against the most.... white males.

What you're advocating is Equal Opportunity Employment.


WRONG!
Now you are talking about "racial quotas"
That is a totally different thing than affirmative action. AA is to ensure that equal opportunities exist and barriers are removed based on gender and race.

Quotas have been struck down, affirmative action has been upheld.
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#21New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:35:02
@Kristy69 Said

That's really not it at all.
No where does it say who's qualified to be "at the top" and who isn't.

If the black kid is better qualified, he should be there; regardless of race/gender.
If they both have the same, let's say GPA, then may the best man win.

Yeah, there probably is "under the table" discrimination going on, but that's really not the point I'm trying to make.


That IS the point that affirmative action is making!
someone_else On August 30, 2012
Not a dude.


Deleted



American Alps, Washington
#22New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:35:18
@Tako_400 Said

We need to help minorities out. Calling that racism is false. It's only racism if you favor one race over another. It's not racism if you try to equal out all races.



We're not calling it racism, we're calling it discrimination. All racism is discrimination, but all discrimination isn't racism.

It's like the whole square/rectangle conjecture. A square is a rectangle because it has four sides. A rectangle is not a square because, although it does have four sides, they are not of equal length.
Tako_400 On April 19, 2010
Keep Ya' Head Up


Deleted



Beirut, Lebanon
#23New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:39:05
@someone_else Said

We're not calling it racism, we're calling it discrimination. All racism is discrimination, but all discrimination isn't racism.

It's like the whole square/rectangle conjecture. A square is a rectangle because it has four sides. A rectangle is not a square because, although it does have four sides, they are not of equal length.



How is it discrimination when you're trying to equal out both races? If you look at the smaller picture (e.g. a job offer where a black man gets a job over a white man) instead of the bigger picture (e.g. where the black community is being encouraged to grow to be on par with the white community), then of course you're going to think it's discrimination. That's why you have to look at the bigger picture.
someone_else On August 30, 2012
Not a dude.


Deleted



American Alps, Washington
#24New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:42:06
@Tako_400 Said

How is it discrimination when you're trying to equal out both races? If you look at the smaller picture (e.g. a job offer where a black man gets a job over a white man) instead of the bigger picture (e.g. where the black community is being encouraged to grow to be on par with the white community), then of course you're going to think it's discrimination. That's why you have to look at the bigger picture.



Because I'm looking at specific pictures, where unqualified people are given jobs based on their minority status rather than their actual merit. Women are included in minorities and they are hardly a different race than men. That would make it NOT RACISM.
someone_else On August 30, 2012
Not a dude.


Deleted



American Alps, Washington
#25New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:45:19
@shinobinoz Said

WRONG!
Now you are talking about "racial quotas"
That is a totally different thing than affirmative action. AA is to ensure that equal opportunities exist and barriers are removed based on gender and race.

Quotas have been struck down, affirmative action has been upheld.



Okay, I re-looked at Affirmative Action and you're right, it is a different thing than racial quotas, although the racial quotas were made as a result of it.

I personally have never been negatively affected by it, so I haven't paid attention to what went out the window and what stayed.
shinobinoz On May 28, 2017
Stnd w Standing Rock





Wichita, Kansas
#26New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:45:37
@Kristy69 Said

Bingo.

Period, end of.


No, not really.
If I can ever find it again I'll post it.
There was a police chief for a major north east city that explained the need for affirmative action and the problem of standardized testing.
He stated that his years as chief opened his eyes as many of the best test takers subsequently were his worst officers and many minorities that would have been disqualified if not for affirmative action were outstanding officers that won many awards and accolades (sp).
He compared that the way it used to be he was forced to select a football team by one standard- all big muscular and strong, or all small quick and fast when we all know that it takes a combination of the above to make a succesful team.
I think WOW, this guy is a true leader that is open to finding success.

Before you jump on the "it's just PC" bandwagon- remember this lesson.
Some day soon we hope there will not be a need for affirmative action.
Soon- but not yet.
fitzyp On December 23, 2014




Auckland, New Zealand
#27New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:48:29
@Kristy69 Said

That's really not it at all.
No where does it say who's qualified to be "at the top" and who isn't.

If the black kid is better qualified, he should be there; regardless of race/gender.
If they both have the same, let's say GPA, then may the best man win.


There are wider applications of affirmative action rather than simply making employers picks someone of one race over someone of another race.

There are other ways which minorities can be given additional opportunities that fall under the category of affirmative action such as scholarships.

@Kristy69 Said
Yeah, there probably is "under the table" discrimination going on, but that's really not the point I'm trying to make.


Its not really about under the table discrimination so much as it is about historical discrimination against minorities.

The point of the cartoon is that large amounts of minority groups are economically behind because they have been historically discriminated against and today people think that trying to give certain minority groups a hand up is reverse discrimination.
Tako_400 On April 19, 2010
Keep Ya' Head Up


Deleted



Beirut, Lebanon
#28New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:52:45
@someone_else Said

Because I'm looking at specific pictures, where unqualified people are given jobs based on their minority status rather than their actual merit. Women are included in minorities and they are hardly a different race than men. That would make it NOT RACISM.



I still don't see it as racism. If there was no need for one race to get boosted, then yeah, that would be racism. But when one race is down, helping them up is not racism.
someone_else On August 30, 2012
Not a dude.


Deleted



American Alps, Washington
#29New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:52:54
All I can say is that there must be an awful lot of employers that don't understand what Affirmative Action is then. In fact, I can think of one right now but it was 16 years ago.
My hubby was a sales associate at a store that sold electronic things. They were hiring another sales person and the people already working there got to meet all of the prospects. They ended up hiring the only woman who applied and yet she was the worst candidate. No standardized tests involved, just basic knowledge questions. SHE KNEW NOTHING. The other people were far more qualified.
That is the wrong usage of Affirmative Action imo.
someone_else On August 30, 2012
Not a dude.


Deleted



American Alps, Washington
#30New Post! Apr 07, 2010 @ 16:53:40
@Tako_400 Said

I still don't see it as racism. If there was no need for one race to get boosted, then yeah, that would be racism. But when one race is down, helping them up is not racism.



If you don't see it as racism then why are we arguing that it's not racism...?
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