Patriotism

@darkman666 Said

in the 60's. when i was a kid, even as a teenager. boys exposed to ww1, www2, and most of the wars going back to american revolution. you saw in tv shows, and movies.

this above, idolism boys of heroism and patriotism that boys, when they turn 18 to joined the military. in some ways, " desert storm ' was the first less combat fighting wars that since the vietnam.

these days, there is more patriotism joining the military, so many our troops see less action than ww2 or vietnam.

you wonder the world peace time has come, it's cheating our boys in military of a good fight. even those, it's saving lives in the long run.

@dookie Said
The machine has taken over, death from a distance, non-combatants caught up in the manipulations of the modern warlords - the men in black suits.

@DiscordTiger Said

I don’t know if I’d go as far as brainwashing, but definitely indoctrination.

Part of the idea after the industrial revolution, school was created to make “good employees” rather than life long learners. So the pledge and rituals of the sort kind prepare for the routine of work, especially factory work.

In 54 they added the god bit, as part of testing the loyalty during the red scare. Notice Americans as a whole seem to be very “afraid” of oppression, which usually gets blamed on the the Russians. Trumps love of Putin, makes this all surreal, as there have been a lot of party flip flops.

But basically any change is “bad” and a potential threat. So we find ways to “teach” the kids the “right” ways. Then rose commie liberals f*** it up with their allowing Women to vote, and everyone to be treated a human. ... so we now need to make America great again.

Which means be a maskhole and apparently spread coronavirus to everyone then b**** about it making trumpsterf*** look bad.

@Jennifer1984 Said

Thanks for that clarification. The first part of that makes sense in a completely capitalist society. Create "good workers" rather than life long learners. Why provide anything more than a basic education on people who are destined to spend their entire working life performing repetitive labour on the factory floor..?

I was aware of the paranoia about communism in the 1950s but didn't know the pledge was adjusted to counter the perceived threat.

The last part, is chillingly realistic too. OK, so we know that the very definition of "Conservative" includes resistance to change, which seems at odds with such a technologically advanced nation, but does make sense from the point of view that, no matter how much technology advances, they still want drone workers who will just do as they're told without question.

"Trumpsterf***". I like that.

@Jennifer1984 Said

Thanks fellas... but I'm none the wiser. I guess it really is just a form of attempted brainwashing after all. Ho-hum.

When I read Ken Burns and Lyn Novik's excellent book "The Vietnam War" (and watched the HBO documentary series that was based on it) I was quite shocked at the depth of determination ingrained in young American men to do "their patriotic duty" and the oath was mentioned on a number of occasions, particularly in the story of Mowgi Crocker, who was too young to join the army and when his parents refused to sign the permission forms, he ran away from home and refused to come back until they did.

Where does that kind of determination to do something that was clearly and obviously self-destructive come from. American soldiers were coming home in body bags on a daily basis and he not only volunteered to serve, but wanted to be right up there in the thick of it. Not surprisingly, he was killed.

But nothing was going to stop him from doing this thing and he wasn't the only one. Yes, we know that many burned their draft cards and as many more ran off to Canada thus making themselves exiles for life.

But I can't help wondering to what level having spent their formative years reciting this oath every morning at school might have had in influencing the likes of Mowgi Crocker and the others like him.

I'm genuinely curious about how you guys feel about this. We have nothing like it here.

@chaski Said

1st: The Pledge of Allegiance as brain washing.

Honestly, for me, the pledge of allegiance was of little impact. We stopped reciting the pledge when I was very young... maybe 2nd or 3rd grate so 7 or 8 years old. I come from a military family so we traveled a lot. I went to a lot of different schools in various parts of the USA and U.S. military bases around the worlds. (Again) We usually didn't recite the pledge... never after about 2nd or 3rd grade.

Point being, from what I can tell, we Americans really didn't say the pledge enough to be brain washed.

Obviously others might have a different perspective.


2nd: Regarding the Vietnam war and Patriotism.

The Vietnam thing was a bit unique in terms of U.S. wars. The soldiers who went were comprised of those who volunteered and those who were drafted; i.e. those that wanted/were willing to go and those who were forced to go.

Examples:

> Special Counsel Robert Mueller is an example of a volunteer. He volunteered not because he wanted to go to war, but because his best friend was drafted; he when for his friend not the USA

Not really about Patriotism.


> My dad is an example of someone who volunteered for military service. He went to Vietnam, not because he wanted to go to war, but rather because when you serve in the military that is one of the things that comes with the job.

I think his motivation to be in the military could be called Patriotism. Going to Vietnam was based on orders. Having talked to him over the years, the philosophy/politics of the war were minimal. He was given a job. He did that job.


> Others, many, volunteered for Vietnam because the believed in the mission/purpose. I don't have a specific example of one of these people.

I think these were examples of Patriotism.


> Some people refused to go and faced prison (or potential prison) because they didn't believe in the mission/purpose; Mohammad Ali is an example.

The issue of Patriotism wasn't really at play with these guys, at least to my way of thinking.


> Some went to Canada, giving up their U.S. citizenship. They didn't believe in the mission/purpose but didn't want to go to prison. (Side note: These guys sort of won the "gamble" because they were later pardoned.)

Not Patriotism.


> A lot of people got legitimate waivers from the draft. Some would argue that they were bulls***, but the reality is that they were legal. Some examples include things like going to university, medical conditions, already working for the federal government, etc.

Patriotism wasn't relevant. Some of these people may well have been "patriotic" they just got a legitimate legal pass on the war. Others might not have been patriotic... we likely will never know.


> And some people (a lot?) got what I consider to be illegitimate waivers. Typically these were medical waivers where the person lied about a fake medical condition. Usually they were rich people who could afford to get a doctor to lie for them (though there were some doctors who gave bogus medical diagnosis because they didn't believe in the war either).

These people are the reason someone else went to the Vietnam war... someone else who may or may not have died instead of these sorts of liars. These people are cowards... filth.

Not Patriotic.


> Now, back to me. I spent my career serving the USA and volunteered to go to a war that I thought was complete bulls***.

The career part was, and I think I can brag about this, Patriotism.

The going to war part had nothing to do with Patriotism; it had to do with supporting my brothers who were selected to go because that is what happens... in the military sometimes you get deployed whether you like it or not.

Finally, back to were I sort of started... I honestly don't think that the pledge of allegiance has/had anything to do with "it"... at least not for me.

@Jennifer1984 Said

Fair comment and thanks for that. It's all grist to the mill.

It's a given that there are many reasons why people go to war that don't include any notion of patriotism.

One you didn't mention about Vietnam, but did get a significant mention in the book, was that the post WWII generation, who were around 18-21 in the early - mid 1960's had grown up in the shadow of those who fought in World War II. Those guys were regarded as heroes and every time there was a military parade they would march in their uniforms, wearing their medals and the newspapers would be full of stories about this or that GI who landed at Omaha Beach, or parachuted into France or battled their way through Italy (as one of my own grandfathers did).

Many young men wanted a piece of that for themselves. They wanted to be able to march when they were in their older age, with everybody clapping and cheering THEM. Their motivation was, I suggest, somewhat selfish. They saw Vietnam as their chance for glory.

Is there any patriotism in that..?

@Jennifer1984 Said

And by extension, anybody who does anything at all, that saves a life, or enhances a community, or provides some service, somewhere... and does it for altruistic, selfless reasons.... Because they believe that risking your own safety to save others, or doing good deeds to better the lives of those less fortunate is something that Americans do.....

Is that not patriotism too...?

@darkman666 Said

i remember this, when i was a kid, it taste pretty good.

@gakINGKONG Said

No. Mary Janes taste horrible. Peanutbutter hard caramels. Yucky poo poo.

@darkman666 Said