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chaski On about 7 hours ago
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#481New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 14:32:40
@bob_the_fisherman Said

You "defend" the bible by choosing to read it in a way that suits your own opinion\


Not at all. I have said many times here on TFS, and even to you, to read all of the bible.

Not a single christian that I have conversed with on TFS (including you), and few in the real world, have ever told people to read the bible.

I've told people to read it and learn it.

Their opinions of it are their own.


@bob_the_fisherman Said

invalidates half of it by calling Paul a fake.


Not actually half, but the truth is the truth. Paul's story is clearly BS.

@bob_the_fisherman Said

then attack Christians for not reading the same way you do.


This is also false. I attack Christians for not reading all of it and for not truly studying their own holy book. If a person doesn't read it, they can't know what it says.

Its very simple Bob.

@bob_the_fisherman Said

Constantine is irrelevant.


No he isn't. The bible was his idea. It was at his direction. It was the product of his guidance.

@bob_the_fisherman Said

The theology of guys like Justin Martyr predates the official compilation of the NT but squares with it entirely from what I have read of him. In terms of basic theology you could just read stuff from the Church Fathers for a lot of it.


And what of all the other "books" and writings that never made it into the bible? There were plenty that don't agree with the writings that became the bible.

Have you read any of those early christian writings? Or are you just stating what you've been told?

And who wrote those early christian writings? One cannot know if one does not study the history of it.

Is is hilarious that I am the one that keeps telling you christians to read your own holy book, study your own holy book, study the history of your own holy book....and then you christians, as you have just done, try to act like I am the one who is being bad or something.

Well....I'm going to be evil again: All you christians, and you Bob in particular, GO AND FULLY READ YOUR OWN HOLY BOOK FROM 1ST WORD TO LAST WORD. THEN STUDY IT. DON'T TRUST WHAT PEOPLE, ANY PERSON, TELLS YOU IT SAYS. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF. READ IT. ALL OF IT. STUDY IT. AND THEN, STUDY THE HISTORY OF IT.

Oh No..... Chaski is being mean to christians again!
chaski On about 7 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#482New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 14:34:23
@bob_the_fisherman Said

As you may remember I used to attack Christians here


I don't ever remember you attacking Christians here on TFS.

I'll trust you on that point.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#483New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 21:19:28
@chaski Said

GO AND FULLY READ YOUR OWN HOLY BOOK FROM 1ST WORD TO LAST WORD. THEN STUDY IT. DON'T TRUST WHAT PEOPLE, ANY PERSON, TELLS YOU IT SAYS. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF. READ IT. ALL OF IT. STUDY IT. AND THEN, STUDY THE HISTORY OF IT.


All of which I have done. That is why I know your comment about Constantine is false. Yes there are historians out there who adhere to very dubious methods and fail at scholarship who say all kinds of wonderful things. You can read them and find almost anything you want to believe being preached as truth. Or, you can just read the writings of the early church to see what they believed. Now, you can of course, bang on about how none of these documents are valid either based on someone's research, and that's fine. Believe what you want.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#484New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 21:45:27
@chaski Said

I don't ever remember you attacking Christians here on TFS.

I'll trust you on that point.


There have been a few over the years.
chaski On about 7 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#485New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 21:48:28
@bob_the_fisherman Said

You can read them and find almost anything you want to believe being preached as truth.




@bob_the_fisherman Said

Or, you can just read the writings of the early church to see what they believed.


Which ones? And which have you read? Which to you adhere to? Which do you deny?

@bob_the_fisherman Said

Believe what you want.




But, it would make sense for you to study it first, which you have not...or only as a very rudimentary level...clearly.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#486New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 21:51:58
@nooneinparticular Said

Personally, choosing one religion over the other, not because you believe in that religion, but because another one is 'worse' seems like a poor way to do things but to each their own I guess.


No, that is not what I meant. My understanding of a god was of a being that is either hateful, cruel, irrelevant because he doesn't give a s***, or outright psychotic. I saw that God when reading the Bible, and had that idea reinforced by so many who claimed to be his children, in that they were as loving as a serpent and made their god a quite vile being worthy of only abject contempt. Then I read the koran and I saw what psychotic gods really look like. I can't really explain it but reading the hateful psychosis of the koran helped me find a concept called grace in the bible.... Makes no sense, but that's what happened...
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#487New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 21:53:18
@chaski Said

But, it would make sense for you to study it first, which you have not...or only as a very rudimentary level...clearly.


Believe it or not Chaski, it is not always the case that people disagree with you simply because they lack knowledge.
chaski On about 7 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#488New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 22:06:01
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Believe it or not Chaski, it is not always the case that people disagree with you simply because they lack knowledge.



Oh I believe that and I know that to be true, and thus I have admitted being wrong and/or corrected, something very few on TFS do....

Of course that seems to have little to do many of our discussions.


Oh, and I have never told anyone that they had to believe me. In fact, since you have a hard time paying attention, please note what I wrote to you: READ YOUR OWN HOLY BOOK FROM 1ST WORD TO LAST WORD. THEN STUDY IT. DON'T TRUST WHAT PEOPLE, ANY PERSON, TELLS YOU IT SAYS. FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF. READ IT. Again, I am one of the very few people on TFS that doesn't actually say "I am unequivocally right and you are wrong"...I say "Go get the facts".
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#489New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 22:14:05
@chaski Said

Which ones? And which have you read? Which to you adhere to? Which do you deny?


What I hear in these types of questions is, why do I not believe in the things like Gnostic and other writings about Christ. And, why do I not accept the ideas of groups like the Jesus seminar and things of that kind. The most simple answer is those early writings do not fit the theology of the early church and do not gel with the bible more broadly, and the historians went into their research with preconceived ideas by their own admission.


@chaski Said
But, it would make sense for you to study it first, which you have not...or only as a very rudimentary level...clearly.


Believe what you want.
chaski On about 7 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#490New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 22:22:14
@bob_the_fisherman Said

...The most simple answer is those early writings do not... do not gel with the bible more broadly,.


This is actually your reason. The "early church" part cannot possibly be the reason, since the church had conflict over deciding what it wanted to believe.

Oh...and gain...which ones have you read and studied?

@bob_the_fisherman Said


Believe what you want.


Oh I do...based on study, facts and evidence...not on blind faith and the expediency of believing what others tell me.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#491New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 23:11:33
@chaski Said

This is actually your reason.


Yes, there is stuff written that was not widely used or considered valid in the early church, and it didn't make the final biblical canon. So what? Anyone can write anything about anything and this does not make it authoritative or valid. The Gospel of (Thomas?) is one example. It was not quoted by the early church so far as I know, yet Justin Martyr and other guys I read referenced writing by Paul and other NT texts, and spoke explicitly of the deity of Christ and other theological concepts the church (mostly) adheres to.

Yes, there were groups that believed Christ to be all kinds of things and wrote about it, but this does not make it valid. The version of Christ that Muhammad had, for example, came from one such group whose name alludes me for the moment, but who were basically expelled from the church and moved into the area around what is now Saudi Arabia. They are still alive and well in the JW theology.



@chaski Said
The "early church" part cannot possibly be the reason, since the church had conflict over deciding what it wanted to believe.

Oh...and gain...which ones have you read and studied?



Justin Martyr is the one I remember most because he spoke at length in one of his dialogues about the theology of Christianity and the deity of Christ. We are talking about reading well over 20 years ago here. I read some Gnostic stuff (enough to discount it), and some of the epistles of the early Christian fathers like Clement, Polycarp etc. I read more than enough to be satisfied with what I had learned.


@chaski Said
Oh I do...based on study, facts and evidence...not on blind faith and the expediency of believing what others tell me.


See, to me this just screams a lot of ignorance and basic incomprehension of things like what a fact is compared to an idea someone has and then seeks to defend. People cast the word "fact" around far too easily in relation to the opinions of themselves or others. And that really is a fact.
chaski On about 7 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#492New Post! Jul 11, 2017 @ 23:57:31
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Yes, there is stuff written that was not widely used or considered valid in the early church, and it didn't make the final biblical canon. So what? Anyone can write anything about anything and this does not make it authoritative or valid. The Gospel of (Thomas?) is one example. It was not quoted by the early church so far as I know, yet Justin Martyr and other guys I read referenced writing by Paul and other NT texts, and spoke explicitly of the deity of Christ and other theological concepts the church (mostly) adheres to.

Yes, there were groups that believed Christ to be all kinds of things and wrote about it, but this does not make it valid. The version of Christ that Muhammad had, for example, came from one such group whose name alludes me for the moment, but who were basically expelled from the church and moved into the area around what is now Saudi Arabia. They are still alive and well in the JW theology.


Justin Martyr is the one I remember most because he spoke at length in one of his dialogues about the theology of Christianity and the deity of Christ. We are talking about reading well over 20 years ago here. I read some Gnostic stuff (enough to discount it), and some of the epistles of the early Christian fathers like Clement, Polycarp etc. I read more than enough to be satisfied with what I had learned.


So in the "early" days of the church there where many ideas...from "good" (and arguably "real" ) to idiotic.

And then at some point the competing ideas were so profuse that the Emperor Constantine essentially told the christians to get your s*** straight and come up with "one" set of "truths" for your belief system.

Of course the Roman Emperor had nothing to do with it... ... but then the Christians that he appointed somehow were infused with the spirit of god and then fallible sinful humans wrote "It" all down and organized it "correctly"....somehow...with the spirit of god in them...

Except it was a temporary "fix" as christians quickly broke apart again into many factions that can't seem to really agree on anything and thus spent centuries killing each other.

@bob_the_fisherman Said

People cast the word "fact" around far too easily in relation to the opinions of themselves or others. And that really is a fact.



Christians....especially the ones who don't read and study their own holy book (and yet "know" what it says) and its history...or people who like to throw around statistics to support their hate of a religion they hate.

And don't include me in that last statement of mine. I don't hate Christianity (or any of the religions of Abraham). I have disdain for the followers of Abrahamic religions, who believe in their mythology without even reading and studying their own belief system.

Keep going Bob...all of your arguments turn on you when you truly look in the mirror and are honest about your own beliefs....

....shifting back to news

...and politics

...this is evident in your hate of Obama & Hillary based on false (or at least factually unsupported) stories, and apparent defense (love?) of Trump, in spite of his own words and actions.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#493New Post! Jul 12, 2017 @ 01:00:44
@chaski Said

So in the "early" days of the church there where many ideas...from "good" (and arguably "real" ) to idiotic.

And then at some point the competing ideas were so profuse that the Emperor Constantine essentially told the christians to get your s*** straight and come up with "one" set of "truths" for your belief system.

Of course the Roman Emperor had nothing to do with it... ... but then the Christians that he appointed somehow were infused with the spirit of god and then fallible sinful humans wrote "It" all down and organized it "correctly"....somehow...with the spirit of god in them...

Except it was a temporary "fix" as christians quickly broke apart again into many factions that can't seem to really agree on anything and thus spent centuries killing each other.




Christians....especially the ones who don't read and study their own holy book (and yet "know" what it says) and its history...or people who like to throw around statistics to support their hate of a religion they hate.

And don't include me in that last statement of mine. I don't hate Christianity (or any of the religions of Abraham). I have disdain for the followers of Abrahamic religions, who believe in their mythology without even reading and studying their own belief system.

Keep going Bob...all of your arguments turn on you when you truly look in the mirror and are honest about your own beliefs....

....shifting back to news

...and politics

...this is evident in your hate of Obama & Hillary based on false (or at least factually unsupported) stories, and apparent defense (love?) of Trump, in spite of his own words and actions.


The "you are biased, but I am not" line gets boring after it has been beaten to death Chaski.
chaski On about 7 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#494New Post! Jul 12, 2017 @ 01:47:54
@bob_the_fisherman Said

The "you are biased, but I am not" line gets boring after it has been beaten to death Chaski.



I have never said that , and if you honestly think that I have accused others of bias and stated that I have none, then you, once again, have failed to pay attention to my posts.

In fact, I have said on numerous occasions that people should do what they want, say what the want and believe what they want...even embrace willful ignorance if they so choose. And, again, I have admitted to being wrong and corrected....

...and I've repeatedly suggested that people seek real facts as opposed to BS and propaganda...especially when the truth of a story is so very easy to determine.

As it turns our, most of your Hillary posts have been incorrect....and...surprisingly if they were correct, your support of Trump would be even more astounding than it already is.

But, again, you should believe whatever you want.

See... I did it again....
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#495New Post! Jul 12, 2017 @ 07:38:08
@bob_the_fisherman Said

No, that is not what I meant. My understanding of a god was of a being that is either hateful, cruel, irrelevant because he doesn't give a s***, or outright psychotic. I saw that God when reading the Bible, and had that idea reinforced by so many who claimed to be his children, in that they were as loving as a serpent and made their god a quite vile being worthy of only abject contempt. Then I read the koran and I saw what psychotic gods really look like. I can't really explain it but reading the hateful psychosis of the koran helped me find a concept called grace in the bible.... Makes no sense, but that's what happened...


You're right. It makes no sense, but no skin of my back.
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