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[Are social constraints necessary?]

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foosyerdoos On March 10, 2015




Aberdeen, United Kingdom
#16New Post! Aug 14, 2010 @ 16:04:14
@Erimitus Said



E: It is still not clear to me what you mean by natural constraints. I view social constraints as artificial and many times arbitrary. What would be an example of a natural constraint? (Aside from peeing on people ? i.e. Voiding where prohibited)



Let me ask you. If there were not a law saying do not kill. Would you kill?
I don't think it is the law that keeps us from killing each other. I think it is the fear of losing our own life that prohibits us(naturally constraining).
The law doesn't stop anybody from killing, it only apportions blame when somebody does.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#17New Post! Aug 14, 2010 @ 22:50:44
F: If there were not a law saying do not kill. Would you kill?

E: yes

F: I don't think it is the law that keeps us from killing each other. I think it is the fear of losing our own life that prohibits us (naturally constraining).

E: My actions are not motivated by a desire to be good (good for goodness sake) or a desire to not be evil (not do harm). My sole motivation is hope of reward and fear of punishment. I adhere to the norms of society because I must if I what to live in that society. And if there were no constraints in a society, then it would soon be ?Lord of the Flies?. My desires are natural, the fear of punishment is natural, and the hope of reward is natural. Constraints (the rules) are man made (artificial).

F: The law doesn't stop anybody from killing; it only apportions blame when somebody does.

E: Moral law states explicitly or implicitly what is good and what is not. Enforcers enforce the law. Judges determine whether or not the law has been broken. Still others inflict the punishment.

Here are my opinions (beliefs) on morality.

1. There is nothing that is either good or bad that thinking does not make it so.
2. That which is good at one time and place may not be good at another time and place.

I cannot support these opinions with evidence or reasoning so I do not consider them fact. If I understand you correctly, you believe that there is an innate morality. Do you have any evidence or reasoning to support your beliefs?
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#18New Post! Aug 14, 2010 @ 23:17:15
I think social constraints are maybe 'useful' rather than necessary.
foosyerdoos On March 10, 2015




Aberdeen, United Kingdom
#19New Post! Aug 14, 2010 @ 23:30:09
@Erimitus Said

F: If there were not a law saying do not kill. Would you kill?

E: yes

F: I don't think it is the law that keeps us from killing each other. I think it is the fear of losing our own life that prohibits us (naturally constraining).

E: My actions are not motivated by a desire to be good (good for goodness sake) or a desire to not be evil (not do harm). My sole motivation is hope of reward and fear of punishment. I adhere to the norms of society because I must if I what to live in that society. And if there were no constraints in a society, then it would soon be ?Lord of the Flies?. My desires are natural, the fear of punishment is natural, and the hope of reward is natural. Constraints (the rules) are man made (artificial).

F: The law doesn't stop anybody from killing; it only apportions blame when somebody does.

E: Moral law states explicitly or implicitly what is good and what is not. Enforcers enforce the law. Judges determine whether or not the law has been broken. Still others inflict the punishment.

Here are my opinions (beliefs) on morality.

1. There is nothing that is either good or bad that thinking does not make it so.
2. That which is good at one time and place may not be good at another time and place.

I cannot support these opinions with evidence or reasoning so I do not consider them fact. If I understand you correctly, you believe that there is an innate morality. Do you have any evidence or reasoning to support your beliefs?




I don't so much believe in an innate morality, more innate self preservation(if I don't threaten him, there is less chance he will threaten me). In human history there must have been a time when there were people and those people had no laws to govern them(unless you believe the Bible).
The fact that people were/are a succesfull species points to a succesfull avoidance of being killed off before laws were introduced.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#20New Post! Aug 14, 2010 @ 23:40:04
F: I don't so much believe in an innate morality, more innate self preservation
(if I don't threaten him, there is less chance he will threaten me).

E: I understand and agree.

F: In human history there must have been a time when there were people and those people had no laws to govern them (unless you believe the Bible).

E: I have been meaning to read the bible. Some people post quotes but I never read them.

F: The fact that people were/are a successful species points to a successful avoidance of being killed off before laws were introduced.

E: Primitive societies may not have been any written law. [Esp. before there was writing. (Of course)] However, I believe, that there must have been standards of conduct even in primitive societies. The standards were most likely imposed by the strongest and those standards that worked remained and were passed on to future generations.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#21New Post! Aug 14, 2010 @ 23:43:12
Response to bob's post


When I started the thread I did not have an opinion. Now I believe that standards of conduct are essential for a functional society and that a societise without rules would not last very long.
foosyerdoos On March 10, 2015




Aberdeen, United Kingdom
#22New Post! Aug 14, 2010 @ 23:51:00
@Erimitus Said



E: Primitive societies may not have been any written law. [Esp. before there was writing. (Of course)] However, I believe, that there must have been standards of conduct even in primitive societies. The standards were most likely imposed by the strongest and those standards that worked remained and were passed on to future generations.



There are always standards of conduct in nature. You just have to look at any social animals for examples. Dogs, lions, hyennas all have social standards to comply with, but they are all to do with preservation of species. An alpha dog killing his pack may as well kill himself. Survival doesn't equal moral.
Ko On January 25, 2011
\\m/(>.<)\\m/





949 Orange County, California
#23New Post! Aug 14, 2010 @ 23:54:49
For most people, yes it is necessary and a must because otherwise they will keep acting in the foul and bad ways they always have been. (They may still be even after the constraint for being stubborn people).

To few, it is not necessary. And in some worse scenarios, societies can even destroy your wellbeing and also suppress and destroy your true reasonings. If you can enter the realm of reasoning for the good or better yet, a true good in and before all actions and words you are going to act upon or use, you are the only one who can control you and guide to the right path.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#24New Post! Aug 15, 2010 @ 00:01:28
@foosyerdoos Said

There are always standards of conduct in nature. You just have to look at any social animals for examples. Dogs, lions, hyennas all have social standards to comply with, but they are all to do with preservation of species. An alpha dog killing his pack may as well kill himself. Survival doesn't equal moral.



Yes
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