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Guilty until proven innocent

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annski729 On July 24, 2016




, United States (general)
#17New Post! Jul 11, 2010 @ 21:58:39
@Mysteria Said

If these guys were made to serve their entire lives in prison, I'd be happy with no death penalty. Prison overcrowding is what's always kept me on the fence. I haven't voted yet, but seeing at least 3 cases of innocent men being punished with life sentences (and the way it affected their lives) on TV in the last week has sickened me.


Something like 1% of all convicted murderers are put on death row. Capital punishment really does not do anything to solve prison crowding. I will try to find a source for that statistic...at the moment it's off the top of my head. Can't find one and have to get going soon, but here's a chart that shows that there really are very few executions per year, far too few to solve any kind of prison overcrowding.


Executions in 2010: 30
Executions in 2009: 52

https://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year


And before anyone says "well just put more murderers on death row!" consider the fact that innocent people are executed given the small amount of executions there are. Increasing the likelihood of a death sentence will no doubt increase the number of innocent people executed.

Prisons are overcrowded mostly because of people caught for nonviolent drug crimes...but that's a whole 'nother debate

@gingernproud Said

im with you on this and im only for it in cases were there is no room for error because of d.n.a evidence and if it is a multiple offender,as
i believe there's no chance of rehabilitation.

as even one innocent person going to death row is one to many also i.m.o
the advances we've made in forensic science has made it possible in some cases to prove without a shadow of a doubt they have the right person.
its these cases and only these cases i believe the death sentence should be carried out.


No. DNA evidence in a capital trial does not 100% mean anything. Read here: https://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Unreliable-Limited-Science.php

DNA evidence is handled by humans. Humans are not perfect. Human error in mishandling DNA evidence or performing forensic tests improperly can lead to a false positive.

This is my biggest objection to the death penalty. I am on the fence regarding the morality of executing a person who actually commited murder. Most days I think it's immoral, but there are times when I get so angry with gruesome stories that my moral opinion changes.

However, the fact that innocent people have and will continue to be executed as long as the justice system is run by humans is enough reason for me to oppose the death penalty all together.

I think people can philosophically be 100% for executing murderers while at the same time be 100% against the death penalty in practice....and I think this is something people often don't realize when they get wrapped up (understandably so) in emotional responses to atrocious crimes.
Mysteria On May 19, 2014
I Am Rogue!





A Small Town, Texas
#18New Post! Jul 11, 2010 @ 22:35:49
Thanks for the case history and the chart.

I'm still on the fence and probably always will be. If I caught someone committing a violent crime and I was absolutely certain I saw the perpetrator in a lineup, it wouldn't bother me to pick that person. On the other hand, I know that eyewitness testimony isn't very reliable. Most of the time, I don't remember what a person's wearing on a day that I speak to them at the grocery store.
gingernproud On January 16, 2013
In need of a dunkin.





Doncaster, United Kingdom
#19New Post! Jul 11, 2010 @ 23:01:47
@annski729 Said

No. DNA evidence in a capital trial does not 100% mean anything. Read here: https://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Unreliable-Limited-Science.php

DNA evidence is handled by humans. Humans are not perfect. Human error in mishandling DNA evidence or performing forensic tests improperly can lead to a false positive.

This is my biggest objection to the death penalty. I am on the fence regarding the morality of executing a person who actually commited murder. Most days I think it's immoral, but there are times when I get so angry with gruesome stories that my moral opinion changes.

However, the fact that innocent people have and will continue to be executed as long as the justice system is run by humans is enough reason for me to oppose the death penalty all together.

I think people can philosophically be 100% for executing murderers while at the same time be 100% against the death penalty in practice....and I think this is something people often don't realize when they get wrapped up (understandably so) in emotional responses to atrocious crimes.



thanks for the link,its very interesting.


this is one of the reasons i think it should only be applied to multi murderers.if there is multiple d.n.a evidence at multiple crime scenes and they correspond with the murders M.O, witnesses etc
murder cases are built up of many things that are brought up in evidence.i should of really stated all this and not just the d.n.a ,i just find that the main factor in how we can be more sure,than we could in times gone by.

i think it would and has been pretty conclusive in some cases,with the added factor that a lot of these monsters also brag about there crimes once caught.
i believe it would all have to be taken into account on an individual basis ,per case.

i don't just think the death penalty should be handed out willy nilly , don't get me wrong...

but take Ted Bundy for instance (probably not the best example but the first that come to mind) we have witnesses D.N.A evidence and a confession ,not to mention a trail of victims going back how many years.he escaped custody for minor offences a few times during the time he was committing his crimes,although at the time the police didn't know he was a murderer.
but my point is he would not of been able to be rehabilitated.if he would of escaped or been released he would of re offended.in my opinion in cases like that it is and was justifiable to deliver the death penalty.
annski729 On July 24, 2016




, United States (general)
#20New Post! Jul 11, 2010 @ 23:44:44
@Mysteria Said

Thanks for the case history and the chart.

I'm still on the fence and probably always will be. If I caught someone committing a violent crime and I was absolutely certain I saw the perpetrator in a lineup, it wouldn't bother me to pick that person. On the other hand, I know that eyewitness testimony isn't very reliable. Most of the time, I don't remember what a person's wearing on a day that I speak to them at the grocery store.


Sure. It's hard to argue against the death penalty sometimes because I think it's natural for a person to want to side with the victim. That's why I am always amazed by victims' families who are against the death penalty. There are also a lot of common misconceptions about it, which makes it a confusing, interesting, and important debate.

Regarding eye witness testimony, yes...mistaken eye witnesses are actually the most common factor regarding wrongful convictions. If you ever get a chance to read the book Bloodsworth you should. It's a very easy read and an interesting case.

@gingernproud Said

thanks for the link,its very interesting.


this is one of the reasons i think it should only be applied to multi murderers.if there is multiple d.n.a evidence at multiple crime scenes and they correspond with the murders M.O, witnesses etc
murder cases are built up of many things that are brought up in evidence.i should of really stated all this and not just the d.n.a ,i just find that the main factor in how we can be more sure,than we could in times gone by.

i think it would and has been pretty conclusive in some cases,with the added factor that a lot of these monsters also brag about there crimes once caught.
i believe it would all have to be taken into account on an individual basis ,per case.

i don't just think the death penalty should be handed out willy nilly , don't get me wrong...

but take Ted Bundy for instance (probably not the best example but the first that come to mind) we have witnesses D.N.A evidence and a confession ,not to mention a trail of victims going back how many years.he escaped custody for minor offences a few times during the time he was committing his crimes,although at the time the police didn't know he was a murderer.
but my point is he would not of been able to be rehabilitated.if he would of escaped or been released he would of re offended.in my opinion in cases like that it is and was justifiable to deliver the death penalty.


Oh no problem.

Already addressed the problems that come up with DNA evidence and eye witness testimony. Keep in mind the possibility of false confessions - something which seems completely unthinkable but is actually much more common than most people suspect.

I see your point, but still disagree. I'm not comfortable putting anyone on death row, no matter how disgusting they may be or how convincing the circumstances may seem. *All* convicted murderers are said to be guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" at the time of the verdict. It is tough, at the time of the trial, to separate those who really are from those who end up later being proven not guilty. Hindsight bias is tricky.
gingernproud On January 16, 2013
In need of a dunkin.





Doncaster, United Kingdom
#21New Post! Jul 12, 2010 @ 00:22:45
@annski729 Said

I see your point, but still disagree.


I see your point also but still disagree myself, as i do think there is some cases that qualify and justify the death penalty.
we might be better to agree to disagree on this one,but as they say the world would be a boring place if we all agreed and thought the same.
i did find out alot of things i didn't know from your link and from googling the case you mentioned though,thanks again for that.
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