God and Free Will

God & Free Will

Lets assume an entity that created and maintains all things, that is eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent, and call this entity [G]

[G]

[G] is an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, benevolent, entity that created and maintains all things.

Omniscient implies consciousness; however, all knowing seems to rule out free will. [G] has no choice. [G] knows in advance what will happen. And [G] knows in advance the choices HE (lets make [G] a he --- can't be all powerful without testicles) ...where was I? .....Oh yeah, HE knows in advance the choice HE and all conscious entities will make.

IF: [G]
Then: no Free Will

Your logic is flawed.

I know something will happen. That doesn't mean I made it happen. I might have possibly allowed it to happen. But whatever is going to happen will have happened whether I knew about it or not...

hey ruby! welcome back, long time, no see! good to see you, and that brainy way of yours.

If you made everything and are omniscient then you knew they way it was going to turn out yet still made it that way and henceforth are responsible.

God creates certain people. He creates them in the way he deems fit. They do what they believe is right or wrong or whatever, and God knew it would happen, but the person is still the one who made the decision. For example: Fitzy, pick up your mouse. Now place in on the pad again. Then wiggle it back and forth a bit.

Since God omniscient He knows whether or not you did it, right? But it was still your choice whether you did it or not. You decided if you wanted to follow those instructions I just gave you, but He already knew what you would decide. He didn't make you decide that. You know in your heart that it was your choice to pick up the mouse or to leave it there. And He knows it too, the only difference is He knew the instructions and the response before they were given, and you didn't. He didn't create you to follow those instructions or to ignore them. But he knew you would (or wouldn't) do it.

p.s. did you do it? sorry, i'm kind of curious.

Thank you for responding to my post

Please allow me to paraphrase to see if I understand

If: I know something will happen. (Say, for example, an eclipse at a specific time)
That doesn't mean I made it happen. (I am not the cause of the eclipse ? the eclipse was going to happen since the first atto-second of time, since the primal cause)

I may allow something to happen. (Say, for example, I see that gravity is about to do its magic on some object. And I do not stop the occurrence. Then I have allowed the occurrence; however, I did not cause the occurrance)

That which going to happen will have happened whether I knew it would happen or not?

I don't believe that God knows what I will be doing in 50 years time or even what I plan to have for dinner tonight.

I think he sees a lot, and provides opportunities and common sense guidelines for us to have a good life. What we do with our lives is ultimately up to us.

There is an old quote I'm quite fond of in regards to religious free will: that there are two types of people in this world.

The type who pray to God and say "Okay, thy will be done Lord" and the type who God watches and smiles thinking: "Okay, go ahead -have it your way then."

IF: [G] created (was the first cause) and maintains (makes all adjustments) for every-thing.
And: [G] is omniscient (all knowing)
Then: [G] knows everything that will happen
And: [G] will know what actions [G] is going to take
So: [G} has no choice ([G] knows what [G] is going to do)
And IF: [G] knows what [G] is going to do
And: [G] is the cause of everything
Then: [G] does not have free will

Rubylights,

You are speaking of God. I am speaking of [G]. [G] is a hypothetical entity that I have created. [G] is only a concept and only exists in my head. (In a neural network behind my right ear)

God creates individuals in the way ?HE- sees fit. (Please accept my apology for my earlier testicular reference, I can be really immature)
Anyway?The individuals that God created act in a way that they believe is in their best interest.
Now, God (being all knowing) knows, has always known, what the individual was going to do. The individual who chose between alternatives and acted on the choice was always going to choose that way, and act that way. God knew it. God always knew it. And so did [G].


OK, I am not understanding (I appreciate your patience in explaining this to me) So, God knew, has always known, that Fitzy would pick up the mouse, place it on the pad, and wiggle it back and forth. Fitzy had a choice to make; pick up the mouse or not pick up the mouse. Fitzy chose to pick up the mouse. However, Fitzy was always going to pick up the mouse. Fitzy?s choice was an illusion. Fitzy only thought ?he (he/she) was choosing.

My cat Hank (actually I am his human) ?Hank keeps the house pretty much mouse free so I was unable to do the wiggle mouse experiment. When I tried to wiggle Hank back and forth he objected. But he (of course) was always going to object. He had not choice.


Erimitus

Sunandsurf,

Thank your for responding to my post.

You are speaking of God. And your belief is a common one, (Maybe the most common one) and it is a belief that I cannot argue for or against. I am speaking of [G], who I have defined as eternal (always was, is now, always will be), Omnipresent (everywhere and every-when), and omniscient (all knowing). [G] knows what you are going to have for dinner and hopes you will enjoy it. God only knows what God knows.

My only prayer is ?Please let me make the correct choice.? I am a determinist; however, I also accept free will. Some call this compatiblism (maybe not in the dictionary). The cliff diver analogy (though not perfect) helps to explain. When the diver leaves the cliff (is born) ?his (his /her) predestination is the ocean below (death). (In this analogy there is nothing for the diver to hit on the way down). While between the top of the cliff and the ocean the winds determent the diver?s path (determinism). What the diver chooses to do (jackknife, swan, summersaults) represents free will, and the divers choice of actions on the way to the ocean, along with the winds that determine ?his path, effect how the diver will enter the water. (Head first, feet first or maybe a belly flop).

The potential for avoiding a belly flop increases for those who follow the ?thy will be done? path.

Erimitus

Hey, you're welcome.

I was sleeping with a guy in my philosophy classes at uni so I remember very little of what I heard at the time. I remember that Thomas Hobbes was associated with determinism and that's about it. Deplorable I know.

I've had a quick look about the net to refresh my memory and it seems that determinism is a maxim that man has little control over cause and effect in their own lives - perhaps on the present and past but certainly not the future.

I would need to do more reading through my old philosophy texts to engage in some equal discussion with you. On face value I'm inclined to agree & I can only offer a lay-persons response here right now:

I know what life I want to be living when I am 90 and I have worked back from there to the best of my ability.

I know what I want my health to be, my financial situation to be, my education level to be, my achievement level to be. I have made life goals in 10 year increments based on that. Nerdy but true.

Info from the present allows me to make those goals although those goals are likely to change as I receive more information. Past experiences tell me what I don't want to repeat so they are helpful. Essentially that's the best I can do in terms of controlling my future. Your comment around praying for the right choices is very apt. Random choices often lead us to random places we never wished to go - to experiences we never wished to have. That was certainly my experience of the 90's lol.

It's a bleak outlook in many ways, but essentially you are probably right. AA are probably determinists as I think about it - they encourage that happiness is based in acceptance, not trying to control the future, the present or even the moment.

thanks for making me use my brain for a little while

First of all you turned me off with the testicles comment (feminazi here) and second, I've heard your argument a thousand times, and even is omniscient G exists, there is still free will among his creations, human beings, because we certainly don't know all, and as far as the christian belief goes, it is the free will choice that he want from us, not a bunch of machines to worship him.

I concur with this paraphrasing and what ruby has been saying. I have been in several arguments about this in the past. I describe it as [G] can see in 4-d the 4th dimension being time.