Poverty

He got us the Rock Hall
um....we got the rock hall of shame when we voted for it back in '84
Cleveland Browns Stadium
Allowed for the Gund Arena *now known as the Q*
Allowed for Jacobs' Field *now known as Progressive Field*
so? Countless other cities have new buildings for their sports franchises. The condition of the stadium was one of the reasons Modell left.
Brought back the glory of Tower City Mall
Glory? Have you seen it lately? Downtown is a mess. Democrat Frank Jackson is Mayor.
He also got rid of the slime ball Art Model
um...Art Modell left for Baltimore in spite of objections fromn cleveland

The location of the the actual building of the Hall of Fame was still in contention in 1995 when NYC vied for it's right to have it. White fought hard to keep it's location in Cleveland siting our need for jobs and tourism. Although, many would say that the clincher was Alan Freed. Personally, I find that a very generic reason.

White allocated for our sports teams that were performing to get new facilities. Modell cried like a little baby saying that the Browns derserved something new also, and White said to him, basically, that we can't do that, because the Browns weren't performing. Modell opted to leave based on White telling him to put up or shut up. The objections of Modell leaving was the fact that he was taking the Browns with him.

And, um..... I'll give you the last time that I was in the actual Tower City Mall was when White was still in office, as, I really just hate all malls. I have however been down to the Tower City Ampitheater quite often, and find it incredibly nice *except the bathrooms* As far as the flats go.... not been there for a very long while. I imagine that they are pretty tore up still, but I though there was still plans on reinventing it, and restoring it. I could be wrong, haven't been down there for awhile.

Hell, the way I look at it, Cleveland is doing a ton better than dear old "Top 10 city to raise a family" Brunswick is. We have all this beautiful looking strip malls going on here, but no one can afford the freaking rent, so all the store fronts are empty. Downtown Brunswick is a disgrace. At least with Cleveland you get to cry "Well it is an inner city".

your post never include any kind of source what so ever. Right now, this looks like a load of bulls***. Seriously, stop with the "dems are s***" s***. Old news, dude. if you want stronger credibility, cite your sources. I mean, I could type up the same thing for the reps in 5 mins. does that mean it's true?

I tried looking around, most the sites are Catholic Sites one was the taste of home forum

Others were some Conservative community group sites

News Channel 5 here in Cleveland put us at the number 2 spot, but that report was from just a few months ago, who knows how long ago this crap started to circulate.

Since poverty and Democrats go together, one must wonder if Democrats cause poverty or poverty causes Democrats. Same thing goes with crime and poverty. Here is an article about how Section 8 housing and crime seem to go together. My theory is that something about poverty, like in the case of Levelle Mixon, makes people blind to the problem.

Yes, this is a troubling trend in America. Poverty and crime. I've always been on the side that says that poverty causes crime, but then you have to think about the hayday of the the Mob and such. They were out right criminals, but with more money than most men of that time could think of. They, committed crime against those who didn't have much money, causing more poverty. Although, this is not the case of today.

In the Housing Project areas around here, crime is high for the area. Drug dealing and use, theft and *thankfully the least of all types* violent crime. I hear so many of them use the excuse of "there just ain't nothin out there" and this troubles me. I know there's not alot out there, and it's hard as hell to stretch a dollar these days, but, I also know in my area, that it's not hard to pick up a couple of hours at McDonald's or Burger King. We have several temp agencies out there, and although it's probably the hardest route to get a job, they always accept applications.

I think that it's just easier to be a criminal *well, one that isn't very good at it* than it is to work and advance. Of course, without them working a "real" job, then you have another statistic to joblessness and poverty. It's just a vicious catch 22.

If that is true, I wonder if Bernie Madoff was ever poor. I remember the first time I heard the idea, poverty causes crime. I had been banished from the school classroom for being too mouthy, and the administration had parked me in the school library. I had been told to sit and wait. So, I waited next to a set of green books. I think the title was Current Biography. The first book had biographies of people written in 1940, people like Mortimer Adler, George Patton, and another man who had been an official of the New Deal. I don't remember the man's name, but he promoted the possibility that raising people from poverty would cure their criminality. Now, eighty years later, do we have any reason to believe he was right?

I know of one example that suggests poverty, or at least necessity, leads to crime sort of like in Les Miserable. I read a book about the Lewis and Clark expedition, if I remember right, by Stephen Ambrose. He says that before the return journey, Lewis tried to buy boats from an Indian. When the Indian would not sell the boats at a price that Lewis could afford, he stole them.

I have spent that last week taking AP tests at the local high school. One of the teachers who administered the tests is the Old Foggy's friend. The teacher is a special education teacher who tries to teach math to slower students. The Old Foggy is a volunteer, who tries to do the same thing. I met the teacher several months ago when she took a math course. It had something to do with her qualification to be a math teacher. The material in the course, or at least the part I saw, was junior and senior high school math. She struggled with it, and she asked the Old Foggy for help. He asked me to help her because he thought if I could explain it to her, I would better understand it. We spent four Saturdays I her kitchen.

Along with learning math, I learned this woman?s biography. About twenty years ago, her husband left her with a teenage daughter and a two-year-old son. She says that her husband never paid child support, and she worked as a waitress in restaurants to earn a living. When her son was older, she needed to fill the father?s roll, and because her work if food service left her too tired to be a soccer or baseball coach, she switched to substitute teaching. Her son is an adult now, and over that last several years she has earned her teaching credential.

In my never to be humble opinion, this is one plucky lady. She could have lived her life as a welfare queen because when her husband left, women with children could live on welfare and never work. She has neighbors who appear to have done exactly that, the evidence being that when they buy groceries, they use food stamps.

That brings me to the point of all this blather. Crime and poverty may go together; Democrats and poverty may go together; but poverty has another connection that may be more important. Generous welfare encourages people to be poor, but like the woman in this story, with some incentive, or at least in the absence of the disincentive of welfare, they might support themselves.

Does not work. As a First Nation family. My poeple's can attest to Euro-invaders and Alien-Americans being poor people at first. Most of our contact between the two groups initially was warm. When the Alien peoples grew in power and wealth- THEN they started attacking. Funny/sad thing is- First Nation's tended to share (form of socialism?) only to have ethnic cleansing and genocide preformed by capitalists.
Poverty does not always lead to crime. Some people are born that way. Some countries are also born that way.

Obviously you saw it comming! UNION control. Oddly only the union membership culd have stopped the final demise. But it accepted another raise!

I agree about how incentive works to help people help themselves. The woman you are talking about is a shining case of acomplishment and you probably have a huge advantage just knowing her. Here, though, is my consistant problem with the view on "welfare moms"


It's quite the contrary. Let's look at the example in Les Miserables.

ValJean steals the loaf of bread because his poverty stricken family cannot eat. He feels that he must steal because there is no way for him to earn the money, there is no help or sympathy out there for him, correct? (Pardon me.... Les Miserables is one of my favorite stories). When he is finally set free, he is unwelcomed in most areas and certainly not hireable because he is a thief. He, turns to stealing again, but, the extreme generosity of the Priest that he steals from is what opens his eyes up, seeing that there is better out there, and he needs to change his ways. This part of the story line is probably the most wonderful expression of following in Jesus' ways that I have ever seen.

Even later, you see Fantine, a young woman who is despirately doing what it takes to give her daughter a better life after being seduced and betrayed by a callous rich boy. She is reduced to poverty, also, and, for her honest work, is thrown out on the street from her real job, and lands herself in prostitution (which was a crime)so that she could give her daughter a better life (or at least what she thought was a better life, as the Inn Keepers were no better than crooks themselves).

Then, you look, and that one simple act of honest generosity gave Fantine the life that she always wanted for Cossette. ValJean uses the money he earns from the candle sticks the priest let him have and becomes wealthy and takes Cossette in. Proper generosity is almost always an incentive.

America is a country where you almost have to force people to be generous to one another. This is why welfare is in place. Is it fair to children of women who can't afford to go to college and get a better job to live without health care and food?

Welfare, the way it is, is flawed yes, but to allow from children to starve is just not acceptable to me.

I also reiderate:

When I first became a mom, I refused welfare. I worked hard, and I did it mostly on my own, with some help from my mom. No one else tried to help me, she was my only support. Soon, it was a choice of my child eating, or loosing a place to live. A no win situation, so, I went on welfare. I, was just about off welfare, and able to sustain myself by working, but then the laws changed, and, and an extremely low income, welfare was ripped from me and my children before I was ready to be able to pay for medical insurance, and food, and rent. I had to lower my income just so that I could afford to live. I certainly didn't want to, but I couldn't afford a better job, I couldn't afford school, and my children had needs that had to be met.

Now, I'm working hard. I've saved up some money, I'm taking Pharmacy Technician courses on line. It's only a 30,000/yr job, but that triples my current income. With the average pay of a Pharm Tech, I should be able to afford to go back to school to become a Pharmacist. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, because by damned if my kids won't be able to go to school just because I can't afford to send them.

Kudos Squirt!

You have great story, very similar to the teacher?s story. It basically says like I was trying to say, ?Nobody needs live on welfare forever.?

While some of the adults in my family have committed themselves to various welfare projects, for example: donating to food banks and working with a charity that provides housing for homeless families, they can be impatient with poor people. I?ve often heard, ?Life hard. Flower drum harder.? It?s sort of the Chinese version of Ebenezer Scrooge asking, ?Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?? Probably, some of that has rubbed off on me, but I realize that the welfare system works the way it should for some people. Last week during testing I head another teacher talking about how he and his wife had had to choose between rent, food, and doctor bills.

Les Miserable has one thing that the welfare system does not have. Valjean knows who has sacrificed to give him the silver candlesticks. Modern welfare recipients don?t know who had to sacrifice or who might have been damaged to provide their welfare checks.

Well, with the modern welfare system, it's collectively paid for by taxpayers in general. This is where I feel the system is most flawed. If you continually don't work, you should get booted off. I completely agree with drug tests to continue on welfare also. It's my feeling that if you have enough money to blow it on illegal narcotics then you certainly have enough to pay for rent, food, and you obviously don't care enough about yourself to need medical care, so why should the taxpayers pay for that.

Actually, Ming..... I think that we mostly agree, it's just that you are a little bit more on the conservative side of it all. I believe in generous welfare for those who prove to need it and are willing to work for it. I know in my area, you can work though the welfare office. I can't tell you how many people I know who refuse to, but you would think that a mom, trying to do what is best for her child, would want them to see that you need to work hard for what you get. at least that's what I want my kids to see, and do with their lives.

About tax supported welfare. Apparently, in English speaking countries it has been around a long time. I don't know a lot about it, but I read in an article in a moldy old Scientific American about the City of Bristol during a war between Britain and Holland in the seventeenth century. The money to feed and house refugees came about 50% from taxes. Even today, many welfare agencies are completely private. Here in our town, seven churches feed a hot evening meal to anyone who wants to eat. I know about this because my father will feed anyone who asks for a handout. If they stumble into one of our restaurants, they get at least rice and vegetables. [With three they get eggroll. ] If we are out in public, he sometimes takes them to one of the churches. The first time I was involved, my father had taken a homeless man to one of the churches, and later we went back to take him to a shelter. When we arrived back at the church, it was mostly deserted. My father asked if they had served a meal. A woman, while holding a Louis Vuitton purse under her arm, looked at me and said to my father, ?Oh, I?m sorry. The meal is over, but the Lutherans serve a meal tomorrow.? A few minutes later we found the homeless man. He had gone to another building because the church also supplied clothes for homeless people. The food bank where my father donates food may get food from a Agriculture Department food program. The family shelter that houses homeless families may be completely private. Local merchants, like my father, pay for it. Children of the families attend the local public school. The parents must look for work. When they find employment, they don?t get to spend the money on anything but necessities, which means food, clothes, and maybe a car because they get free rent and utilities. When they have enough money to be able to afford an apartment, they move out. The people involved in the family shelter say that it has an almost 100% success rate. I know of one case that did not work out. I found out about it one day while I worked at one of the food banks. A man and a boy came in, and we gave them groceries. One of the permanent workers told me that the man and boy had been at the family shelter. They had disappeared along with the furniture.