@doubtingthomas Said
First by no means do I feel torchering animals is needed. 1st its a waste of time. 2nd it makes a mess. Just want to get that out of the way.
Then we really don't have anything to argue about here.
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How far does you morality toward animals other than humans extend?
From what you said, you eat "dead meat".
To all animals with the capacity to suffer.
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Well is it dead meat that was killed with a strait razor, and bleed to death? Or dead meat that was killed with an axe? Or dead meat that was alive long enuff to be put in a pot and boiled alive? How about dead meat that was from a bull fight, a bull that was effectivly torchered to death for hours in the hot sun infrount of a crowd, for entertainment. Would you eat that dead meat?
I would not eat meat from a tortured animal. Your boiling alive example is too extreme - farm animals are not boiled alive. Maybe some animals are in Chinese markets, but I would never eat anything from there anyway.
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I'm sure the animal that you wanted to eat would have been much happier alive and well in a field some where instead of dead on your dinner table. By you eating it, you are in effect supporting its methoud of death.
Oh please, we are omnivores. We have already discussed about the method of death, no need to repeat ourselves.
And you are dismissing something very important to all of this - intent. The intent to be cruel, to cause pain, etc. It is a cornerstone of what cruelty really is... well, at least the cruelty we inflict upon humans and animals alike.
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You havn't given me a clear cut example of which animals deserve your compassion and which don't. You tell me that I can't just pick and choose, my own morals. When in fact you yourself are picking and choosing.
Isn't it obvious though? Any animal with the capacity to feel pain is deserving of my compassion because if I hurt it, I know it is going to feel it. So if I am hunting for food or for population control, I am going to sure that the animal's death will be quick and painless as possible.
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You don't support the use of glue traps but you support the death of an animal for your own source of protein. A protein source you could easly subsitute with a veriety of diffrent vegtiable sources.
I support the killing of animals when needed, but not in a torturous manner. You think it is one and the same.
As for your vegetarian argument, this involves it's own dilemmas too. How do you think vegetables are harvested? Animals die while they are being harvested by machines, or killed off if threatening crop. These supplements, most likely in pill form to cover for certain vitamins or proteins, were tested on animals. So either way you cannot avoid death.
And I will say it again - death is not the issue here, you're going off tangent. It is a part of our life that we have to kill animals, and we can't avoid that. But most of the time we can avoid making them suffer... and by that I mean by killing them in slow and painful ways, or just generally mistreating them as if they were objects that felt nothing. THAT can be minimised, and doing something about it isn't a detriment to our own species, but a credit to our humanity. That we are kind to other species, even if sometimes we have to kill them. In some cases, killing is the kind thing to do - or the lesser of two evils if you will.
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You yourself have never bow hunted. You have never shot an animal with a NON fatal blow and tracked it for a 1/4 mile till it bleed and exausted itself to death. Never walked up to the face of a animal that was suffering for hours before you came to in and where forced to dispatch it. Never gotten out your hooks and rope and strung it up on a tree and gutted it right there on the spot. Never felt the warm inards in your bare hands of an animal that was breathing hours before your encounter. Never looked intense suffering in the face and said "gosh darn This is going to be good eating!!".
I have never bow hunted, but having lived on a farm I have hunted before. I don't see what point you're making considering I am fine with hunting as long as you don't make the animal suffer unnecessarily. Now, I have already stated to you that sometimes cruelty and suffering cannot be avoided, but we should ensure not to prolong it where possible. Do you have a problem with this? Do you think it is not important?
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You have very little real idea of how that animal was treated hours if not days before it came to its timely demise.
And you do?
I know how the laws of my country work, and I know what the conditions are in slaughterhouses because I have seen it with my very own eyes. There is no mistreat and abuse, except in isolated incidents where they are dealt with appropriately.
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This disconnection people like yourself have with thier food is an extremly modern idea. I see it alot with people I personaly know. Peopel who would be discusted to slaughter thier own animals before eating them. But they could tell you 100 diffrent ways to cook the animals they refuse to kill themselfs.
There is no disconnection. I have hunted and killed for food myself in the past, I have seen the processes that acquires us meat on our plates and it is not as bad as PETA would like you to believe.
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I think its that very same disconnect that provides you with the moral high ground. Because you yourself where never forced to kill and make an animal suffer in unspeakable ways before it provided you food.
"Unspeakable ways" - what does that mean, exactly? And please don't make assumptions - you're making things up out of thin air. When I hunted I always ensured that the animal was dead very quickly. From what you're saying it seems that you made something suffer for the hell of it.
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I think its that very same emotional response in a that takes over when trying to rid yourself of a pest from your household. You want to be rid of the pest but you don't want to hear is scream for its life. You want a neet tidy little unsuffering package.
No, I just don't want it in unnecessary agony when I'm killing it. Just like with every other animal.
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Empathy toward humans and retaining your humanity can be done at the expence of all other creatures of this world.
No, it can't. You're just being totally hypocritical, and most certainly unethical. Your humanity includes the ability to be kind, and by ignoring the plight of other species, or mistreating them (and you know what I mean by this), you are shooting yourself in the foot. Even if you take care of your fellow man well, and kick your dog, you're still being unkind.
Being mean is being mean... this is exactly what I mean by picking and choosing. For example, you can't just be good to one person, then set a cat on fire, and suddenly say that you're humanity is intact. Because the intention to be so unkind in the first place unravels it.
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Just keep in mind I am just saying and admiting to what you yourself and likly the rest of the world practice already. Its not discusting or wrong, its humanity in its purests ugly form. Now please pass me a plate of that "dead Meat".. with a side of suffering.
Well to put it another way, I would say the human species has a long way to go yet.
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Definition of "Humane" is "Of pretaining to humanistic Studies"
Definition of "Humanistic" is a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare, values, and dignity.
Rofl.
It also means:
"marked or motivated by concern with the alleviation of suffering"
"Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion"
Those are the major definitions. That is how the word is regularly used in our language. You know EXACTLY which term were are referring to here, now you are tying to ignore it?
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Did I twist the defentions to suit my arguement? Maybe, but lets hope you can see where I'm comming from.
Oh, I know where you are coming from. You don't give a s*** about animals at all, and can't see the difference between a quick kill and a slow, painful one. You think that as long as the ends are the same, the means are irrelevant. I don't agree with that, in fact, I think it is totally bogus but if you want to continue believing it then fair enough, I am not going to convince you otherwise.