Immigration "activist" arrested.

@wildething Said
illegal immigrants founded america.
illegal in that the native americans certainly did not give them the legal right to live there.
now america is one of the strongest countries in the world.
so what did the founding fathers contribute?
lets not be so blinkered by bigotry here.

@ugly_ducky Said
Actually no. What illegal immigration does is drive down wages for everybody in the lower economic bracket while the price of goods still go up. Do you honestly think those who are exploiting this labor are passing the savings on to you?

@ugly_ducky Said
Any tax burdens assumed by the rich and corporations are passed down to the average joe. Lets face reality, illegal immigration is a burden not an asset. They are costing this country more than they are contributing to it.
Remove them, yes there will be consequences but there is no reason at all to assume they would be worse then what we are dealing with now.
I just do not see any evidence at all that allowing millions of uneducated and unskilled impoverished people into the country is a good thing.

Here is an interesting read on the impact of illegal immigration and the job market.
https://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_jobs.html

@stumblinthrulife Said
If you expel the illegal immigrants, we will not get our $11,000 back each year. It'll probably cost more than that to seek out and mobilize 11,000,000 people, and then secure the borders (I mean really secure them, not just put up a fence) against more.

To put that 11,000,000 figure into context, that's nearly 20,000 Boeing 747s full of illegal immigrants. A full tank of fuel for 747 costs about $100,000. So that's $2 billion in fuel alone to remove all illegals from the USA. Then you have to track down, apprehend and process all of them before you even load them onto the plane. Let's say 1 man can apprehend 1,000 illegals a year (a farical figure, virtually impossible). That's 11,000 man-years of labor to apprehend them all. Let's say you're paying them $40,000 a year, very reasonable for skilled labor. That's another $440 million, and you still need to process them, and jail them while you're waiting for your 20,000 747s to be fueled up.

The length of the US border with Mexico is nearly 2,000 miles. The border with Canada is nearly 9,000 miles. So that's 11,000 miles of land border alone to secure. I can't even begin to estimate the cost of that, even if they just built a frakking great big wall. If you really want to be secure you need,what? An officer every mile? Every half mile? Every 100 yards? Let's say one per mile. Let's pay them $25,000 a year, after all they just need to point a spotlight and shoot presumably. That's $275,000,000 in wages a year. Plus 401k, benefits, etc... let's call it a cool $300,000,000 a year.

This is my point. Whether it's right or wrong to deport them is completely irrelevant. It's logistically impossible, not to mention obscenely expensive, to deport all illegals. I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with Bush on something - it's much better to make it easier for them to come here legally and pay taxes, than to kick them all out and enforce the borders against future breach. It's the humanitarian option, giving people dignity and the chance to provide for their family. It's the ideal capitalist option, opening a source of cheap labor to grow our economy (you think China wants to serve us forever - they want to be us). It's a win-win, ticking liberals' boxes as well as conservatives'. But it won't happen because democrats must always oppose republicans, even when the policy is more bleeding heart liberal than Hilary Clinton and Al Gore's love child. And republicans must oppose liberals, even when the policy could have been penned by a right-wing nut job.

@stumblinthrulife Said
Do you honestly think that if they lose those savings it wouldn't be reflected in the cost of goods?

I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong. All I'm trying to do is raise awareness that you can't expell over 10 million of the lowest paid workers in the country without it having a material effect on us all.

@stumblinthrulife Said
If you expel the illegal immigrants, we will not get our $11,000 back each year. It'll probably cost more than that to seek out and mobilize 11,000,000 people, and then secure the borders (I mean really secure them, not just put up a fence) against more.

To put that 11,000,000 figure into context, that's nearly 20,000 Boeing 747s full of illegal immigrants. A full tank of fuel for 747 costs about $100,000. So that's $2 billion in fuel alone to remove all illegals from the USA. Then you have to track down, apprehend and process all of them before you even load them onto the plane. Let's say 1 man can apprehend 1,000 illegals a year (a farical figure, virtually impossible). That's 11,000 man-years of labor to apprehend them all. Let's say you're paying them $40,000 a year, very reasonable for skilled labor. That's another $440 million, and you still need to process them, and jail them while you're waiting for your 20,000 747s to be fueled up.

The length of the US border with Mexico is nearly 2,000 miles. The border with Canada is nearly 9,000 miles. So that's 11,000 miles of land border alone to secure. I can't even begin to estimate the cost of that, even if they just built a frakking great big wall. If you really want to be secure you need,what? An officer every mile? Every half mile? Every 100 yards? Let's say one per mile. Let's pay them $25,000 a year, after all they just need to point a spotlight and shoot presumably. That's $275,000,000 in wages a year. Plus 401k, benefits, etc... let's call it a cool $300,000,000 a year.

This is my point. Whether it's right or wrong to deport them is completely irrelevant. It's logistically impossible, not to mention obscenely expensive, to deport all illegals. I find myself in the rare position of agreeing with Bush on something - it's much better to make it easier for them to come here legally and pay taxes, than to kick them all out and enforce the borders against future breach. It's the humanitarian option, giving people dignity and the chance to provide for their family. It's the ideal capitalist option, opening a source of cheap labor to grow our economy (you think China wants to serve us forever - they want to be us). It's a win-win, ticking liberals' boxes as well as conservatives'. But it won't happen because democrats must always oppose republicans, even when the policy is more bleeding heart liberal than Hilary Clinton and Al Gore's love child. And republicans must oppose liberals, even when the policy could have been penned by a right-wing nut job.

@stumblinthrulife Said
I'm guessing I just killed this thread. Always seem to happen when I have one of my little 'moments'.

@wildething Said
illegal immigrants founded america.
illegal in that the native americans certainly did not give them the legal right to live there.
now america is one of the strongest countries in the world.
so what did the founding fathers contribute?
lets not be so blinkered by bigotry here.

@ugly_ducky Said
I am sure it would but the cost of goods go up regardless while wages remain artificially depressed do to this cheap labor.
I mean if you really think a head of lettuce is going to jump to $15 dollars then that is unrealistic and nothing more than scaremongering.

@stumblinthrulife Said
Do not put words in my mouth. Nothing pisses me off more. I did not say $15 for a head of lettuce - you did.

I am not scaremongering. I am trying to bring some balance to the argument. People think that removing illegals from the US must be a good thing, after all, they are costing us all this money, right? My point is merely that there will be a huge economic impact to removing the illegals. That HAS to be taken into account before action is taken.

It's like so many things. It shouldn't have started in the first place. The borders should have been secure from day one. But they weren't, and now our society has integrated the illegal aliens and cheap labor into it's very being, and to rip them out could cause extreme pain to the economy. Maybe it won't, who knows? But surely we shouldn't just completely ignore the economic aspect in pursuit of an ideal?

@ugly_ducky Said
I never said there would not be an economic impact so don't you put words in my mouth.
In some of those links I supplied they discuss this. It talks about places in the US where illegals are not predominately filling the usual niches of jobs that people claim americans will not do and the price of goods and services have not jumped dramatically.

@stumblinthrulife Said
I didn't put words in your mouth. At no point did I say what you had said or hadn't said.

I'm glad that in those places the cost of goods did not increase. Maybe that will be the case if we create a hostile (or at least uncomfortable) environment for illegal immigrants. I hope so, because I believe that if it is feasible something should be done about illegal immigration. All along my argument hasn't been "we should/shouldn't do this" it has been "but is it feasible?".

I also believe that at one and the same time, legal immigration opportunities should be widened to allow, with control, people to provide services for us in order to support their families. It opens a valuable pool of unskilled labor, and provides a dignified alternative to charity.

What are your views on guest worker programs and controlled immigration?