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"Objects" and "Directions/Goals"

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tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#1New Post! May 21, 2011 @ 17:54:28
I've mentioned before a book called "The Spirituality of Imperfection" (I think Boziefozie said it was one of her favorites) Anyway, I was dipping into it, in between a novel on Cleopatra (a few naughty bits there, especially when Mark Anthony enters her boudoir) and a biography of Bob Dylan, and a bit of hoovering at the command of She Who Must be Obeyed.

It mentioned a guy called Farber, a Psychoanalyst, who mused that our will operates in two distinct realms. The realm of objects and the realm of directions/goals.

Objects, or specific entities, we are can directly choose. But goals cannot be directly chosen, and in fact can even be distorted - even destroyed - by overt attempts to control them.

Some examples are given.....

We can directly will.........

knowledge. But not wisdom.

pleasure. But not happiness.

congratulations. But not admiration.

reading/listening. But not understanding.

meekness. But not humility.

going to bed. But not sleeping (!!)

This confusion of objects with goals/directions can lead to anxiety, and is doomed to failure......"The harder I try to fall asleep, the wider awake I get." "The harder I try to make myself happy, the more miserable I am."

Just so, a certain book tells us that we are to love God and neighbour. But it would seem, at least to Mr Farber, that love cannot be commanded.

Anyhow, now that it looks highly likely that the end of the world has not struck - despite the Bible's offering of proof that "cannot be dismissed" - perhaps there could be a discussion concerning all this.

Or perhaps not.

tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#2New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 10:32:03
So........................."perhaps not"....

Lets ask a few questions.........do others here think such things as "happiness" CAN be willed? "Wisdom"?

Will we eventually become "happy" or "wise" by seeking such things, or by appreciating them, or perhaps by seeing them in others and seeking to emulate what these "others "do, or "think"?

OR maybe, a clue in the words "Assume a virtue if you have it not, for use can almost change the stamp of nature". Start trying to act "right" according to "happiness" etc and the reality will follow......

Anyway, a few words from Merton regarding "happiness" etc as "object".....Related to any attempt to achieve "the good" as object....

We would see "happiness" and "the good" as "something to be attained" and thus place them outside ourselves in the world of objects. In so doing, we become involved in a division from which there is no escape: between the present, in which we are not yet in possession of what we seek, and the future in which we think we will have what we desire.............the more one seeks "the good" outside oneself as something to be acquired, the more one is faced with the necessity of discussing, studying, understanding, analyzing the nature of "the good".

So then techniques to obtain "the good" are devised, yet often they become an end in themselves.....

Well, there you go.........or not.....
Electric_Banana On February 05, 2024




, New Zealand
#3New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 10:44:48
So instead of working towards being happy and good, just assume that we are already happy and good.
Electric_Banana On February 05, 2024




, New Zealand
#4New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 10:46:25
Of course I could make joke about also assuming a fat bank account, harem and six pack but then that would be letting myself believe that I need to acquire those objects before I am happy or good.
tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#5New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 11:54:22
@Electric_Banana Said

So instead of working towards being happy and good, just assume that we are already happy and good.


Using Merton's words again.....

The way of Tao is to begin with the simple good with which one is endowed by the very fact of existence. Instead of self-conscious cultivation of this good (which vanishes when we look at it and becomes intangible when we try to grasp it), we grow quietly in the humility of a simple, ordinary life, and this way is analogous (at least psychologically) to the Christian "life of faith." It is more a matter of believing the good than of seeing it as the fruit of one's effort.
Electric_Banana On February 05, 2024




, New Zealand
#6New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 12:50:47
@tariki Said

Using Merton's words again.....

The way of Tao is to begin with the simple good with which one is endowed by the very fact of existence. Instead of self-conscious cultivation of this good (which vanishes when we look at it and becomes intangible when we try to grasp it), we grow quietly in the humility of a simple, ordinary life, and this way is analogous (at least psychologically) to the Christian "life of faith." It is more a matter of believing the good than of seeing it as the fruit of one's effort.



So, pretty much just sit back and enjoy the ride?
RedKate On June 15, 2011

Banned



Port Stanley, Falkland Islands
#7New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 13:20:27
the goals are a result of the things you CAN will directly though. Happiness comes about when you are doing what you want and so on, so in that way you can control it.
tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#8New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 14:18:42
@Electric_Banana Said

So, pretty much just sit back and enjoy the ride?



Well, as I understand it, the "eastern" bit is that there is no one actually sitting back..... ...........This is what all the non-dualism is about.

Merton comes to the rescue by saying that the greatest happiness comes about in doing precisely nothing whatever that is calculated to obtain happiness.............perfect joy is to be without joy, because knowing it is joy destroys it.............if you ask 'what ought to be done' and 'what ought not to be done' on earth to produce happiness, the answers to these questions do not have a fixed and predetermined answer to suit every case. If one is in harmony with the Tao the answer will make itself clear when the time comes to act, for then one will act not according to the human and self-conscious mode of deliberation, but according to the divine and spontaneous mode of wu wei, which is the mode of action of Tao itself, and is therefore the source of all good.

The other way, of self conscious striving, even though apparently virtuous, is fundamentally a way of self-aggrandizement. As I understand it, this is what "faith" and "works" is all about in the Christian faith, and why all our virtues "stink in God's nostrils" (as the Good Book says so eloquently) Unfortunately, such is said in fundamentalist circles without the slightest understanding of the meaning - in fact said, more often than not, with self-righteous contempt towards other human beings who do not share their own beliefs.
tariki On September 16, 2012

Deleted



, United Kingdom
#9New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 14:24:49
@RedKate Said

the goals are a result of the things you CAN will directly though. Happiness comes about when you are doing what you want and so on, so in that way you can control it.



Perhaps. But reading the OP again, I just do not think it is so. We do not necessarily become wise by choosing to gain knowledge, nor humility by choosing meekness. Perhaps hypocrites, but that would be all.....

And I would say that most of us don't really know what we want, or only think we do.

But I'm thinking about it. Thanks for your interest.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#10New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 15:07:22
Anyhow, now that it looks highly likely that the end of the world has not struck - despite the Bible's offering of proof that "cannot be dismissed" - perhaps there could be a discussion concerning all this.

Or perhaps not

The rapture is near. It did not occur on 5.21.11 because we did not take leap years into account. The new (improved) end of the world is 10.21.11. This is an absolute certainty. The only difference is that it has now been privatized and in order to be saved you need a voucher. Luckily I a selling them on ebay but the supply is limited. Mention tfs and get a special discount.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#11New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 15:13:14
My day is not complete without a quote of 'Merton'.

I am still in Merton 101 (learning terms and basic concepts)and cannot really comment beyond some pedantic regergitation of terms I have memorized.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#12New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 15:13:43
@Electric_Banana Said

So instead of working towards being happy and good, just assume that we are already happy and good.



You may be happy and not even know it.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#13New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 15:15:26
@Electric_Banana Said

So instead of working towards being happy and good, just assume that we are already happy and good.



@Electric_Banana Said

Of course I could make joke about also assuming a fat bank account, harem and six pack but then that would be letting myself believe that I need to acquire those objects before I am happy or good.



It has been proven in double blind sudies that it is difficult to be unhappy when you have a fat bank accout, a harem, and a six pack, and in many cases just a six pack is enough.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#14New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 15:17:45
slip sliding away:

I heard this 'simple good' equated to a wet bar of soap. The harder you try to graps it the more it slips away.
Erimitus On July 01, 2021




The mind of God, Antarctica
#15New Post! May 28, 2011 @ 15:18:40
@tariki Said

Using Merton's words again.....

The way of Tao is to begin with the simple good with which one is endowed by the very fact of existence. Instead of self-conscious cultivation of this good (which vanishes when we look at it and becomes intangible when we try to grasp it), we grow quietly in the humility of a simple, ordinary life, and this way is analogous (at least psychologically) to the Christian "life of faith." It is more a matter of believing the good than of seeing it as the fruit of one's effort.



@Electric_Banana Said

So, pretty much just sit back and enjoy the ride?



a leaf in the wind.
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