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Electric_Banana On October 13, 2021




, New Zealand
#136New Post! Sep 23, 2021 @ 21:37:51
@shadowen Said

With Biden having bizarrely given up control of BaB there was only ONE suitable airstrip, that being the one in Kabul. The airstrip controlled by allied forces. You seriously think it would have been possible for outsiders to sabotage this airstrip? To make it inoperable? 'They' would have had bloody Buckley's.



Oh yeah,

You saw them all clinging to that one plane as it left......

There are many of them and they don't mind sacrificing a few thousand of themselves as bullet and grenade absorbers while the few in the back end make it to their target.
Na On about 2 hours ago




, Florida
#137New Post! Sep 26, 2021 @ 17:30:52
Businesslike Taliban are back to hanging the accused like Christmas ornaments from cranes.

To their credit, they're targeting other than gays

So, that would be equal opportunity crane hanging.

But that's one less kidnapper eh?

Associated Press--so not sure if it's legit-- you decide
Na On about 2 hours ago




, Florida
#138New Post! Sep 26, 2021 @ 17:32:15
@Electric_Banana Said

Oh yeah,

You saw them all clinging to that one plane as it left......

There are many of them and they don't mind sacrificing a few thousand of themselves as bullet and grenade absorbers while the few in the back end make it to their target.



Buddy was hanging on the side like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. Gangster!
shadowen On October 14, 2021




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#139New Post! Sep 30, 2021 @ 03:48:30
@Electric_Banana Said

Oh yeah,

You saw them all clinging to that one plane as it left......

There are many of them and they don't mind sacrificing a few thousand of themselves as bullet and grenade absorbers while the few in the back end make it to their target.

You are living in a fantasy land if you seriously think the Taliban could have put the airport in Kabul out of action for anything other than a brief period of time...at best.
shadowen On October 14, 2021




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#140New Post! Sep 30, 2021 @ 04:12:02
@4d4m Said

The fact they are all Muslim was my point. Muslim Afghans fighting against what they may perceive as "more righteous" Muslim Taliban, or possibly Mujaheedin Taliban might have led to a failure of will.

This perception may be subconscious rather than on a conscious level.


As I previously stated, from 2014 the bulk of the fighting (and dying) was being done by the Afghan army. Yes there were problems with leadership, corruption, drug use, poor discipline, tribal division and problems over pay and conditions. Despite these issues however the Afghan army was doing ok with the support of allied troops. This all changed dramatically when Biden announced that US forces (and therefore other western forces, as well as private contractors) would be pulling out by the end of August. No ifs or buts. They would be gone.

To understand why the Afghan army collapsed so quickly and so completely you need to look at what changed btw the Afghan forces fighting the Taliban with reasonable success over a number of years, and the Afghan army suddenly disintegrating. This is something i discussed in my previous post and so i shan't repeat myself.

@4d4m Said

If the two forces, now on a more equal footing, fight then it is the side with the will to win that will succeed. I think it's fairly obvious the Afghan government forces did not have the will. The Taliban did.

I agree. "Fighting spirit", a unit's level of esprit de corps, plays a huge role in the fighting efficiency of that unit. A HUGE role. And yes you are right in saying that the fighting spirit of Taliban units was significantly higher than that of the Afghan units they were facing from the time Biden announced the conditions and timeline for the withdrawal of US troops (meaning other western troops and private contractors would also be leaving) until the total collapse of the Afghan army. We just disagree as to the main reasons why the moral of Afghan units totally collapsed in the 3 months or so leading up to the total US withdrawal.
shadowen On October 14, 2021




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#141New Post! Sep 30, 2021 @ 05:28:50
@shadowen Said

The WAY in which the US pulled out of Afghanistan was a monumental clusterf#ck.


OK so why do i think the US lead withdrawal from Afghanistan was a monumental clusterf#ck. There are many reasons which include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. Negotiating with the Taliban a hard, unconditional withdrawal date.

This agreement was a huge win for the Taliban and gave them a sense of certainty. The US had agreed not to engage any Taliban forces except in self defence whilst guaranteeing a date by which they would be gone. The Taliban could now engage government troops in the knowledge that they would not be directly supported by US forces, and in the knowledge that said government forces would be left completely on their own in a few months time. This really strengthened the fighting resolve of the Taliban whilst destroying the resolve of Afghan forces. If the US was determined to withdrawal her forces in 2021 then the withdrawal should have been conditional, with an aspirational withdrawal date that was subject to specific conditions. Indeed all stages of the withdrawal should have been subject to specific conditions being met. The US should also not have agreed to take no military action against Taliban forces except in self defence.

2. Withdrawing during the fighting season.

The fighting season in Afghanistan generally runs from April to October. Biden announced that the US would be withdrawing during the middle of the fighting season. The stupidity of this timing is hard to comprehend. It was like the US were seeking to do all they could to ensure that the Taliban would succeed.

3. Withdrawing the military before civilians and equipment.

The military provide security. In order to safely and efficiently evacuate civilians (both US citizens and Afghan allies) the US needed to control the area of departure, as well as the area from where most civilians were coming (eg the 'green' zone in Kabul). They also needed to keep open a secure corridor btw those needing to be evacuated and the evacuation point. The US did none of these things. The result was that some 200 US citizens were left behind along with many more Afghans who had helped the US over the years. This should be unforgivable. The US also left behind some 10 billion dollars worth of equipment. This included crypto technology as well as ECMs, used to detect improvised explosive devices etc etc etc

4. Failure to secure the external perimeter of Kabul Airport.

The fall of Kabul meant that the US were unable to secure the external perimeter of their only sizable evacuation point. Instead the US were forced to rely on the Taliban to secure the airport's outer perimeter. The result was that US and allied troops stationed on the airport's perimeter had their safety placed into the hands of people they had been fighting for the past 20 years. The Taliban were unable to provide the security required and 13 US servicemen lost their lives as a result. Their deaths are a direct result of the mind blowing stupidity and incompetence of those at the top whose decisions placed these troops in such a vulnerable position.

5. Giving up Bagram Air Base

There were only two airfields in Afghanistan capable of playing any significant role in evacuating men, equipment and civilians. One of these was at Bagram. In giving up Bagram the US left itself with only one location from which to carry out it's withdrawal. Voluntarily reducing your options is rarely a smart move.

And so the list goes on. All of the above mistakes were avoidable and their consequences entirely predictable. This is not a case of being smart in hindsight. The withdrawal however was driven by political considerations with no concern for the human cost involved.
shadowen On October 14, 2021




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#142New Post! Sep 30, 2021 @ 05:49:12
So Generals Mackenzie and Milley have stated they they told Biden that the US should keep 2,500 troops in Afghanistan for the foreseeable future. However, only a few weeks ago Biden claimed that no military advisors ever said anything of the sort to him...that he can recall. So either the generals are lying, Biden is lying, or his mental faculties have deteriorated to such an extent that he can't even recall such critically important communications.

You would expect that if the Generals gave Biden the advice that they claim that this was documented somewhere. Assuming this is the case we will then have yet another example of Biden lying about Afghanistan...or being unable to remember hugely important information and conversations.
shadowen On October 14, 2021




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#143New Post! Sep 30, 2021 @ 05:51:44
As previously stated, the US led withdrawal from Afghanistan was a monumental clusterf#ck and yet no one in power is accepting any responsibility. No one is losing their job, no one is being held accountable and no one is being punished. Indeed the only person to be punished so far is a Marine Lt Colonel who dared to ask for some sort of accountability.
4d4m On about 7 hours ago




4dforum.org,
#144New Post! Oct 02, 2021 @ 02:45:18
@shadowen Said

As previously stated, the US led withdrawal from Afghanistan was a monumental clusterf#ck and yet no one in power is accepting any responsibility. No one is losing their job, no one is being held accountable and no one is being punished. Indeed the only person to be punished so far is a Marine Lt Colonel who dared to ask for some sort of accountability.


To me the interesting thing, and one you are pointing out, is the accountability of the Officers in charge of the operation. Although I disagree with Trump's deal with the Taliban and Biden sticking to the deal, the execution of the withdrawal and evacuation mission was an abomination. The press seems to want to crucify BIden over this.

Biden, like any other president, relies on the Chiefs of Staff and the officers in the field to plan and execute military missions.

The same thing happened with the assault on the diplomatic mission in Benghazi. No field officer, or flag officer, calls the Secretary of State to ask what to do. That's not the State Dept head's area of expertise. The protection of the embassy is the responsibility of the military and the intelligence agencies. Blaming Hillary for the disaster is misdirection. It would be comical except that some people bought it.
chaski On 7 minutes ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#145New Post! Oct 02, 2021 @ 02:58:31
@shadowen Said

You are living in a fantasy land if you seriously think the Taliban could have put the airport in Kabul out of action for anything other than a brief period of time...at best.



@shadowen Said

As I previously stated, from 2014 the bulk of the fighting (and dying) was being done by the Afghan army. Yes there were problems with leadership, corruption, drug use, poor discipline, tribal division and problems over pay and conditions. Despite these issues however the Afghan army was doing ok with the support of allied troops. This all changed dramatically when Biden announced that US forces (and therefore other western forces, as well as private contractors) would be pulling out by the end of August. No ifs or buts. They would be gone.

To understand why the Afghan army collapsed so quickly and so completely you need to look at what changed btw the Afghan forces fighting the Taliban with reasonable success over a number of years, and the Afghan army suddenly disintegrating. This is something i discussed in my previous post and so i shan't repeat myself.


I agree. "Fighting spirit", a unit's level of esprit de corps, plays a huge role in the fighting efficiency of that unit. A HUGE role. And yes you are right in saying that the fighting spirit of Taliban units was significantly higher than that of the Afghan units they were facing from the time Biden announced the conditions and timeline for the withdrawal of US troops (meaning other western troops and private contractors would also be leaving) until the total collapse of the Afghan army. We just disagree as to the main reasons why the moral of Afghan units totally collapsed in the 3 months or so leading up to the total US withdrawal.



@shadowen Said

OK so why do i think the US lead withdrawal from Afghanistan was a monumental clusterf#ck. There are many reasons which include, but are not limited to, the following:

1. Negotiating with the Taliban a hard, unconditional withdrawal date.

This agreement was a huge win for the Taliban and gave them a sense of certainty. The US had agreed not to engage any Taliban forces except in self defence whilst guaranteeing a date by which they would be gone. The Taliban could now engage government troops in the knowledge that they would not be directly supported by US forces, and in the knowledge that said government forces would be left completely on their own in a few months time. This really strengthened the fighting resolve of the Taliban whilst destroying the resolve of Afghan forces. If the US was determined to withdrawal her forces in 2021 then the withdrawal should have been conditional, with an aspirational withdrawal date that was subject to specific conditions. Indeed all stages of the withdrawal should have been subject to specific conditions being met. The US should also not have agreed to take no military action against Taliban forces except in self defence.

2. Withdrawing during the fighting season.

The fighting season in Afghanistan generally runs from April to October. Biden announced that the US would be withdrawing during the middle of the fighting season. The stupidity of this timing is hard to comprehend. It was like the US were seeking to do all they could to ensure that the Taliban would succeed.

3. Withdrawing the military before civilians and equipment.

The military provide security. In order to safely and efficiently evacuate civilians (both US citizens and Afghan allies) the US needed to control the area of departure, as well as the area from where most civilians were coming (eg the 'green' zone in Kabul). They also needed to keep open a secure corridor btw those needing to be evacuated and the evacuation point. The US did none of these things. The result was that some 200 US citizens were left behind along with many more Afghans who had helped the US over the years. This should be unforgivable. The US also left behind some 10 billion dollars worth of equipment. This included crypto technology as well as ECMs, used to detect improvised explosive devices etc etc etc

4. Failure to secure the external perimeter of Kabul Airport.

The fall of Kabul meant that the US were unable to secure the external perimeter of their only sizable evacuation point. Instead the US were forced to rely on the Taliban to secure the airport's outer perimeter. The result was that US and allied troops stationed on the airport's perimeter had their safety placed into the hands of people they had been fighting for the past 20 years. The Taliban were unable to provide the security required and 13 US servicemen lost their lives as a result. Their deaths are a direct result of the mind blowing stupidity and incompetence of those at the top whose decisions placed these troops in such a vulnerable position.

5. Giving up Bagram Air Base

There were only two airfields in Afghanistan capable of playing any significant role in evacuating men, equipment and civilians. One of these was at Bagram. In giving up Bagram the US left itself with only one location from which to carry out it's withdrawal. Voluntarily reducing your options is rarely a smart move.

And so the list goes on. All of the above mistakes were avoidable and their consequences entirely predictable. This is not a case of being smart in hindsight. The withdrawal however was driven by political considerations with no concern for the human cost involved.



@shadowen Said

As previously stated, the US led withdrawal from Afghanistan was a monumental clusterf#ck and yet no one in power is accepting any responsibility. No one is losing their job, no one is being held accountable and no one is being punished. Indeed the only person to be punished so far is a Marine Lt Colonel who dared to ask for some sort of accountability.



Did you serve in the military?

In Afghanistan?

If so, are you willing to go back?

Repeatedly... and for some unspecified time... indefinitely... endlessly into the future...?
4d4m On about 7 hours ago




4dforum.org,
#146New Post! Oct 03, 2021 @ 16:48:51
US bases overseas are manned by troops rotating in on a scheduled basis. Army units are stationed in South Korea, for example, are part of the defense of the dmz and have been since the 1950's. Single troop's tour there is 2 years. It's part of the normal life of military members. Soldiers on their first tour will do part of their time overseas, new troops are rotated in and relieve those at the end of their tour.
Electric_Banana On October 13, 2021




, New Zealand
#147New Post! Oct 09, 2021 @ 03:22:03
@shadowen Said

You are living in a fantasy land if you seriously think the Taliban could have put the airport in Kabul out of action for anything other than a brief period of time...at best.



Not the Taliban, the Afghanis trying to escape the Taliban.

"Please! Please! Don't go home Mr. USA! We will get our Come Upin's and I don't feel like Come Upin's!!"
4d4m On about 7 hours ago




4dforum.org,
#148New Post! Oct 10, 2021 @ 06:12:10
I think Shadowen was trying to point out the US forces could have kept the Taliban out of the airport with no problem.

Consider this, is it possible the operation was intentionally conducted in a f@#$ed up manner as a political manipulation to destroy Biden's ratings? For that matter what about Benghazi and Somalia? Both of these incidences occurred when democrats held the office of President.
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