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Jennifer1984 On about 6 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#856New Post! Nov 21, 2020 @ 07:32:44
@dookie Said

As a supplement to Jennifer's post, a link to the story re Portaloos and Lorry Parks (just in case anyone thinks this is a joke):-

READ ALL ABOUT IT



And let's not forget, that these facilities are going to have to be emptied, cleaned and maintained. A portaloo is only a temporary receptacle for human waste. It is not plumbed in. There is no sewage pipework beneath the ground to take the waste away.

I wonder how the portaloo servicing vehicles are going to get along the lines of full containers, to carry out the function of emptying and sanitising them, when the road is clogged with stationary, stranded lorries...??

And even when the facilities have been emptied, where are the servicing vehicles going to dispose of their loads...? Are current sewage treatment facilities in Kent up to the task...?

We're hearing nothing about these logistical difficulties. Has the government thought of this...?

It's one thing to put tens of thousands of portaloos along the side of the road. It's another thing altogether to service them.

And if these portaloos start to overflow due to not being adequately serviced, then there is the risk of disease....

Tens of thousands of portaloos, not properly serviced could cause levels of above ground sewage gas to pollute the air around motorways which could have serious affects on those breathing it. I'll spare you the details. Use your imagination.

Bacterial infections such as Salmonellosis can be picked up by local insects and spread quickly. Viral infections such as gastroenteritis and even Hepatitis A could spread like wildfire among drivers stranded for long periods in close proximity to overflowing toilets. Parasites such as tapeworm.... do you really want me to go there..?

Are drivers being warned of this..? Is anybody telling them of the risks they may face..?

Or is this yet another Brexit disaster waiting to happen..?
dookie On about 6 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#857New Post! Nov 21, 2020 @ 08:49:47
An oldie but still a goldie. The analogy of chucking in your membership of the Golf Club.

Membership brings discounted drinks at the bar, the benefit of playing a round as and when you choose.

So you decide to leave, not liking the dress restrictions or the manner of the committee in charge. The annual fee is objected to, seen as too high.

So you walk out of the door never to return. End of story. But no.

The member who leaves now seeks to continue to enjoy the discounted drinks, but dressed as they please, taking no notice of whatever manner in which the committee in charge speak. The member - yes, as an independent human being - still wishes to play a round of golf whenever they please. But without paying any membership fee!

And said ex-member objects to the attitude of the committee!
Jennifer1984 On about 6 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#858New Post! Nov 21, 2020 @ 15:37:22
Prime Minister's Questions are held around 12 noon every Wednesday (when Johnson isn't hiding in a fridge, pretending to have yet another bout of Coronavirus or otherwise finding ways of avoiding being held to account for his pathetic performance as Prime Minister).

It's supposed to work like this:

Kier Starmer, Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition asks the Prime Minister a question, and the Prime minister is supposed to answer the question. Simple, eh..? In a functioning democracy, you'd think so, yeah..?

The item below is an example of how it actually happens with Boris Johnson as Prime Minister:



This is what we're up against.
shadowen On about 12 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#859New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 03:01:07
@dookie Said

In effect, at least as I see it, there is no actual "independence", at least in the real world....we live in a mutually interdependent world where co-operation and respect for each other needs to play the main part.

National independence and co-operating with other countries are hardly incompatible with one another.

@dookie Said

As Winston Churchill said, national sovereignty is not inviolable and may need to be surrendered in part if done for a greater good.

Interesting that you chose to quote Churchill, a man who fought tooth and nail to keep the Empire together. Maybe quoting him is appropriate as the EU is a little like it's own Empire, expecting the UK to surrender part of her sovereignty for the EU's greater good.

@dookie Said

Fishing is an emotive issue and seems to have a shadow across the Trade Negotiations far deeper than its economic worth.

True. Though in truth only 8 EU countries really care about the EU maintaining control over the UK's fisheries. These are headed by France. Macron has had a difficult 2 years and should he be seen to 'cave in' to the UK's outrageous position that, as an independent coastal state, they intend to take control of their fisheries then he would face considerable local backlash. There is a lot of simmering tension in France and it wouldn't take much to ignite nation wide protests which historically have led to riots. The yellow vests haven't gone away and one suspects they would be quick to support any action taken by French fishermen. The French fishermen themselves, though small in number, are well organised and highly militant. Macron simply can't afford to upset them and must be seen to be doing everything possible to maintain their access to the UK's fish stocks.

@dookie Said

we must needs look at the case of the Passenger Pigeon in the USA and their extinction. Once those birds darkened the sky in huge flocks. Unbridled economic driven capture brought extinction. The fact is that Cod - and other varieties of fish - were being overfished. Quotas had to be enforced to prevent virtual extinction. That is the bottom line. Exactly who fishes where is secondary.


I completely agree that quotas were and are necessary. I don't actually know of anyone who contends otherwise. Unfortunately the EU have failed miserably to protect fish stocks in their waters. If you would like to know more i would suggest that you read some of the articles published by organisations such as Greenpeace.

Now do I think the UK will do a better job in protecting fish in her EEZ than what the EU have done? I have no idea. I hope so but who knows. At least if it's just the UK government making and enforcing rules to protect fish stocks in her waters then it is clear where the buck stops, and if they get it wrong they can be held to account. This is one of the many issues with the EU and the CFP as they cannot, and are not, held to account for their failures.

Among the many issues with the CFP are:
* Communal management without particular responsibility
* A quota system based on lobby and barter
* Communal management without particular responsibility
* Political ambition in Brussels to drive for an integrated EU fleet system

Despite the failures of the CFP there has been a strong reluctance to end it as this would be seen as an EU failure or retreat. Not something Brussels can contemplate.

Anyway, the importance of preserving the world's marine life is one that should concern everyone. The CFP has been given a long time to get things right and failed. The UK at least now have the opportunity to try something different, something better. That is assuming they don't sell out to the EU.

Just on fishing and recently the EU announced that French, Spanish and Italian fishermen would have their fishing days and quotas in the Mediterranean reduced by 15%. This is in response to a directive from the GFCM, which predates the EU and the CFP and is the ultimate authority in the Mediterranean re marine resources and aquaculture. Fair to say that the fishing industries in the aforementioned EU member states are none to happy. Yet another reason why they demand the EU maintain control over the UK's fisheries.

Now if after December 31 the EU still controlled fishing in the UK's EEZ it wouldn't be hard to imagine an outcome where UK quotas were cut further in order to provide some relief for French, Spanish and Italian fishermen who are facing reduced fishing in the Mediterranean.
shadowen On about 12 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#860New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 03:20:25
@dookie Said

It was shown that demographically, on average, the higher the educational level of someone the more likely they were to have voted to Remain in the EU.

Or put another way, the more affluent someone is the more likely they are to vote remain. Hmmm, i wonder why that might be?

Anyway, you seem to be equating 'education' with intelligence which is unfounded. Indeed an argument can be made that the higher your 'education' the grater your exposure to indoctrination.

@dookie Said

....a lot of Leave voters were/are as thick as s**t.

Ah yes. Those stupid, ignorant, bigoted, racist, uneducated working class people who simply don't know what's good for them. They need to just shut up and do what the intelligentsia tell them to. Why they are even allowed to vote is a mystery. Voting should be reserved for those with a uni degree.
shadowen On about 12 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#861New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 03:22:33
Meanwhile in the glorious EU they are still unable to agree to a new budget. This budget includes measures pertaining to the impact of covid-19...
Jennifer1984 On about 6 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#862New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 07:54:13
@shadowen Said

Or put another way, the more affluent someone is the more likely they are to vote remain. Hmmm, i wonder why that might be?

Anyway, you seem to be equating 'education' with intelligence which is unfounded. Indeed an argument can be made that the higher your 'education' the grater your exposure to indoctrination.


Ah yes. Those stupid, ignorant, bigoted, racist, uneducated working class people who simply don't know what's good for them. They need to just shut up and do what the intelligentsia tell them to. Why they are even allowed to vote is a mystery. Voting should be reserved for those with a uni degree.



Well, that'd rule you out for a start.

But the entire post is bullshine. Education is the giving and receiving of systematic instruction.

It is graded to take into account the assessed level of ability that an individual or group possesses. F'rinstance, a four year old in Reception class will be taught the alphabet... basic arithmetic... simple use of educational tools and equipment. Any infant school child, no matter how high their intelligence is perceived to be at that age is going to be fast tracked onto critiquing Shakespeare or calculating Pi to the 50th decimal place.

The education system in Britain also strives to improve, through education, "The Whole Student" in their personal development through classes in social behaviour, sport, interpersonal interaction, the arts, and others besides. These classes are usually derided by people such as yourself as "PC Gone Mad".

You would allow racism and sexual discrimination (goodness knows, I've had to put up with your sexist bulls*** for long enough) to flourish by cancelling such classes as unnecessary, but in Britain up to now, the post war education system has encouraged and nurtured good social behaviour. We must protect this mission from being dismantled by malign forces that see education only in terms of churning out factory fodder into the workforce, to make profits for corporations.

Provision is made for people with special needs, even into adulthood. This is right and proper in any civilised society.

Anybody can be "educated" to a level commensurate with their abilities. A person can find their level and with that, a place and a role in society appropriate to, and fulfilling for, the individual. What is required of the state is the resources, strategy and will to do it properly.

There was a time when I entertained thoughts of taking advantage of the ERASMUS Programme (European Region Action Scheme for the Mobility of University Students) to take a year working on the continent as part of my Masters Degree but Brexit kicked that into touch. Nice one, Boris.

That dream is gone so now, rather than being in a programme of education as a student, I am now an educator myself. I love my work now, but Lord, it's been difficult making the transition.

Speaking of which, I have to get off to work now.
dookie On about 6 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#863New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 08:01:04
@shadowen Said

Meanwhile in the glorious EU they are still unable to agree to a new budget. This budget includes measures pertaining to the impact of covid-19...



Hi again to my aussie friend who appears much concerned with how us resident Brits live our own independent lives over here in the land of hope and glory (more hope these days than glory)

I would say "lack of agreement" is more understandable when 27 independent nations are involved than when just one House of Commons goes into meltdown over various issues, resulting in shutting it down illegally and now seeking to break international law to trash a Deal signed with the EU only last year and sold to the nation as Oven Ready!

But more later.

Thanks for your interest.
dookie On about 6 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#864New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 08:45:06
@shadowen Said

National independence and co-operating with other countries are hardly incompatible with one another.


Interesting that you chose to quote Churchill, a man who fought tooth and nail to keep the Empire together. Maybe quoting him is appropriate as the EU is a little like it's own Empire, expecting the UK to surrender part of her sovereignty for the EU's greater good.


True. Though in truth only 8 EU countries really care about the EU maintaining control over the UK's fisheries. These are headed by France. Macron has had a difficult 2 years and should he be seen to 'cave in' to the UK's outrageous position that, as an independent coastal state, they intend to take control of their fisheries then he would face considerable local backlash. There is a lot of simmering tension in France and it wouldn't take much to ignite nation wide protests which historically have led to riots. The yellow vests haven't gone away and one suspects they would be quick to support any action taken by French fishermen. The French fishermen themselves, though small in number, are well organised and highly militant. Macron simply can't afford to upset them and must be seen to be doing everything possible to maintain their access to the UK's fish stocks.



I completely agree that quotas were and are necessary. I don't actually know of anyone who contends otherwise. Unfortunately the EU have failed miserably to protect fish stocks in their waters. If you would like to know more i would suggest that you read some of the articles published by organisations such as Greenpeace.

Now do I think the UK will do a better job in protecting fish in her EEZ than what the EU have done? I have no idea. I hope so but who knows. At least if it's just the UK government making and enforcing rules to protect fish stocks in her waters then it is clear where the buck stops, and if they get it wrong they can be held to account. This is one of the many issues with the EU and the CFP as they cannot, and are not, held to account for their failures.

Among the many issues with the CFP are:
* Communal management without particular responsibility
* A quota system based on lobby and barter
* Communal management without particular responsibility
* Political ambition in Brussels to drive for an integrated EU fleet system

Despite the failures of the CFP there has been a strong reluctance to end it as this would be seen as an EU failure or retreat. Not something Brussels can contemplate.

Anyway, the importance of preserving the world's marine life is one that should concern everyone. The CFP has been given a long time to get things right and failed. The UK at least now have the opportunity to try something different, something better. That is assuming they don't sell out to the EU.

Just on fishing and recently the EU announced that French, Spanish and Italian fishermen would have their fishing days and quotas in the Mediterranean reduced by 15%. This is in response to a directive from the GFCM, which predates the EU and the CFP and is the ultimate authority in the Mediterranean re marine resources and aquaculture. Fair to say that the fishing industries in the aforementioned EU member states are none to happy. Yet another reason why they demand the EU maintain control over the UK's fisheries.

Now if after December 31 the EU still controlled fishing in the UK's EEZ it wouldn't be hard to imagine an outcome where UK quotas were cut further in order to provide some relief for French, Spanish and Italian fishermen who are facing reduced fishing in the Mediterranean.


It seems odd to me that you have spent about 90% of your response to what is, in reality, a minor issue (however emotive and headline grabbing......talk of OUR waters and our RIGHT to their exclusive use by OUR OWN fishermen will always get the juices going and the flags waving!) However, the reality is that total "independence" is a phantom. Merely suggesting that it is actually possible in today's world to make totally unilateral decisions for which "we" alone are responsible and can be held to account for is quite frankly the stuff of unicorns and la la land. Co-operation, mutual respect, recognition of the rights of others, and more, all necessarily play their part.

And there are further realities in the REAL world. Look at Mr Trump who for four years has trod the path of America First. Listen to him blame everyone but himself for each and every failure of policy.......with those who support him hanging upon every word and roaring approval. As I have argued elsewhere, genuine independence must be found other than in membership - or not - of any Trade Bloc or Organisation. "Sovereignty" has no substance. It is simple to see.
shadowen On about 12 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#865New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 09:21:18
@dookie Said

It seems odd to me that you have spent about 90% of your response to what is, in reality, a minor issue

So fisheries is a minor issue is it? Hmm, some one best tell Macron and Barnier etc that this is the case.
shadowen On about 12 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#866New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 09:23:10
@dookie Said

I would say "lack of agreement"

I suspect that the 27 member states, and esp Poland and Hungary, see the issues stalling the passing of the EU budget as more than just a "lack of agreement".
shadowen On about 12 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#867New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 09:26:25
@dookie Said

...Co-operation, mutual respect, recognition of the rights of others, and more, all necessarily play their part.


Again, things like "Co-operation, mutual respect, recognition of the rights of others" aren't at odds with independence. The two are not mutually exclusive.
shadowen On about 12 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#868New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 09:40:19
Meanwhile Canada has become the 53rd country to agree a trade deal with the UK post Brexit with a commitment to reach an even more comprehensive trade deal in 2021. Another country that actually understands the factors behind the IMB.

New trade deals with Japan and Canada, plus pending trade deals with Australia and NZ, should see the UK take a step closer to joining the CPTPP.
dookie On about 6 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#869New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 10:23:28
@shadowen Said

Or put another way, the more affluent someone is the more likely they are to vote remain. Hmmm, i wonder why that might be?

Anyway, you seem to be equating 'education' with intelligence which is unfounded. Indeed an argument can be made that the higher your 'education' the grater your exposure to indoctrination.


Ah yes. Those stupid, ignorant, bigoted, racist, uneducated working class people who simply don't know what's good for them. They need to just shut up and do what the intelligentsia tell them to. Why they are even allowed to vote is a mystery. Voting should be reserved for those with a uni degree.


Finally your response to the claim that "intelligence" of whatever shape or form had a part to play in whether one voted Remain or Leave and that those voting Leave were of a "lower" realm!!

I hold to my position. Yes, we agree that any level of education does not necessarily relate to intelligence. Take a look at a Thread I have raised on the Religion and Philosophy section regarding one use of knowledge. A good accumulation of what could be called "facts" is a barrier against being manipulated by the those who would seek to convince us of anything.

My experience is that pure lack of factual data has led to many voting Leave. Yes, all facts must need be interpreted and put in ever greater contexts, but we must begin with as much information - verified - as possible (at least, in most things)

I have participated on various Comments Sections of our British tabloids. Take my word for it (up to you!) the sheer level of ignorance is breathtaking. It is demonstrated beyond question that most have no inkling whatsoever of the actual EU directives on Freedom of Movement, are unaware of the verified stats that show the positive economic impact of our EU immigrants. Posting such facts brings NOT intelligent refutation, but accusations of "blather", of "Red Thumbs" being pressed to announce "dislike" of the posts - but of actual counter argument, cogent or not, there is rarely a sign.

Often the cry is heard from Leave voters "We have been left behind". I have yet to have explained to me any reason why anyone would think membership - or not - of the EU has anything at all with being left anywhere. It is patently obvious, given successive UK governments virtually perfect freedom to determine housing and welfare policy and the allocation of funds for the same, that such a cry of being left behind, and thus voting Leave, has no substance. There is no link.

The reality is that a predominately Tory press has been anti-EU ever since we joined. Ludicrous stories of one size condoms and straight bananas have been the bread and butter of the Tabloid gutter press. Constant headlines of the "EU Bullies" and the "EU Dictators" have drawn the inevitable blood. All problems and challenges that any modern nation must needs face are presented as being corrupted by EU directives.

I HEAR the consequences all around me, in the words of many friends and acquaintances. Good people, yet their outlook stained by prejudice against virtually all things foreign. It REALLY is noticeable. There IS a "little englander" mentality, very palpable, undeniable, that corrupts.

As far as the "affluent", yes, the VERY affluent have driven Brexit. They have very little concern for those "left behind". I could name the top 10 or so, millionaires and billonaires. I suspect they are laughing even now at the minnions who voted Leave, from whatever tax haven their money is safe in.
dookie On about 6 hours ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#870New Post! Nov 23, 2020 @ 10:27:33
@shadowen Said

So fisheries is a minor issue is it? Hmm, some one best tell Macron and Barnier etc that this is the case.



Yes, economically minor, yet as we agree, emotive.
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