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Make America Great Again?

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Darkman666 On about 16 hours ago




Saint Louis, Missouri
#16New Post! Sep 05, 2020 @ 01:25:21
I travel a lot... I have met many people that (prior to 1916) told me that the USA was a "great" country. These people came from places like Italy, Spain, all over central and south America, Japan, the south east asian, the middle east... I don't know if their opinion was based on facts or just what they chose to like and believe, but they seemed to believe that the USA was "great" spanning a period (observed in my life and travels) from 1868 to 1916. (Of course I... my experiences with people... are by no means a scientifically valid sampling of the world.)

chaski - no wonder you like take pictures of bugs. only bugs call you, " youngester " !
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#17New Post! Sep 05, 2020 @ 09:30:55
@chaski Said

Side notes:

> Being great does not mean that others are not or were not also great.

> Sometime being great is based on facts. Example: A great sprinter would be someone who won many sprints and possibly broke records.

> Sometimes being great is more subjective. Example: My son's think I am a great dad. Maybe I am, maybe I am not... maybe I am not the "greatest" father who ever existed, but perhaps I am the "greatest" father that they know of... or maybe they just like me a lot.

> Being "great" is not the same thing as being "perfect". Example: Pele is largely viewed as one of the greatest soccer players of all time. He was by no means perfect... his teams did not win every game... he missed shots on goal... on a personal level he was married 3 times (something went wrong...), etc... So, again, being "great" does not mean being "perfect".


So... on to your question:

Using things like military power and economic power, one could argue that the USA was "great" from shortly after WW2 through some time later. Looking at the USA from the perspective of a place of opportunity, one could argue that the USA was "great" perhaps until the last few years.

Of course the USSR (in the past) and Iran (in the present... along with some other countries) might argue that the USA was never "great"... or was/is a "great" pariah in the world.

I travel a lot... I have met many people that (prior to 2016) told me that the USA was a "great" country. These people came from places like Italy, Spain, all over central and south America, Japan, the south east asian, the middle east... I don't know if their opinion was based on facts or just what they chose to like and believe, but they seemed to believe that the USA was "great" spanning a period (observed in my life and travels) from 1968 to 2016. (Of course I... my experiences with people... are by no means a scientifically valid sampling of the world.)

Mostly I would say that America was perceived by the majority of Americans to be "great" from at least the mid-1940's (though likely from the late-1800's) at least until sometime in the 2000's.

Why?

A variety of reasons that range from national/patriotic pride to the status of the USA in the world.


So...

When: at least in the view of some (both from the USA and not from the USA) the USA was once "great". That period of time is not set in stone, but could arguable be put in the 20th Century.

Why: A variety of factors both "factual" and "opinion" based.

I think one could look to Great Britain and say the same sorts of things... certainly throughout history there have been countries/kingdoms/empires... peoples that were "great" in one or more ways... based on one or more factors. To some, the Roman Empire was one of the "greatest" empires in history.... their "victims" probably had a different opinion.



Thanks. I appreciate the time you have spent in answering.

I'm ensconced once again in Costa's. I find it therapeutic, the whole atmosphere. After about three or four weeks of avoiding the news as much as possible, I'm beginning to experience some sort of "release" ( no jokes Darkman..... ) from the "ways of the world."

I think its easy to equate greatness with strength and the exercise of power. Both when looking at individuals and at nation states/empires. The NT speaks of "strength being found in weakness" and thats a whole different ballgame.

Weakness goes with being useless and Chuang Tzu speaks of the useless stinktree, ending with the verse:-

So for your big tree. No use?
Then plant it in the wasteland
In emptiness.
Walk idly around,
Rest under its shadow;
No axe or bill prepares its end.
No one will ever cut it down.
Useless? You should worry!

Mentioning "individuals" makes me think of the difference between individualism and personalism. In Buddhism "individualism" becomes very problematic, with anatta (no-self) being at its heart. Individualism I associate with assertion, of division from others. Personalism is far less problematic for Buddhism - "personalism" assumes that the "other" is also a person. And as persons there is inter-relationship and mutual respect. Thomas Merton, who was deeply involved with dialogue between Buddhism and Christianity saw the question of the Person as one of the main areas of future dialogue.

I would rather reflect upon what makes us "persons" rather than individuals; in the assertion of power, or of supposed "weakness"?

I think I'm drifting away here. Once I was very interested in Roman history, especially as the Republic evolved into Empire. Much to admire in the Republic. Once, one of a conquered people became a citizen of Rome and rose to becoming one of the two Consuls (i.e. the top job!) This in just twenty years. Astonishing really. Much like a Jamaican coming over to the UK with the Windrush generation and becoming PM within twenty years. (Instead of having his landing documentation "lost" and ending up being deported after giving our country the best years of his life)

As far as the UK is concerned, as I see it, much of our perceived "greatness" - for some - is corrupted by nostalgia, for the "good old days", the "spirit of the blitz", Dunkirk and all the rest of it. Further back, the Empire. Great? As Chaski argued, a very subjective thing. Maybe we judge ourselves whenever we reflect upon whatever it is we see as "Great."

I think there is a lot to be said for weakness , certainly at the personal level. In emptying ourselves we can hear the "other" as a person equal to ourselves. I would associate "weakness" with mercy, even with grace. Many prefer power, assertion, enforcing one way upon all. I think in the end they just may end up as nothing themselves. Wanting only a mirror image of themselves - lest they feel judgement and uncomfortable questions - they dissolve into nothing.

Well, I'm off.
gakINGKONG On October 18, 2022




, Florida
#18New Post! Sep 05, 2020 @ 14:10:15
Moments of American Greatness

1. Independence from the King of Britain (Declaration of Independence > The Constitution
2. Four Great Awakenings
3. The abolition of slavery (Abraham Lincoln--Republican like Donald Trump)
4. Peanut butter
5. Humans on the moon first
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#19New Post! Sep 05, 2020 @ 14:37:47
@gakINGKONG Said

Moments of American Greatness


Peanut butter



There is evidence that ancient South American Inca Indians were the first to grind peanuts to make peanut butter, and a Canadian, Marcellus Edson, developed the paste for the modern world. Another steal, like the land from the native americans.

I know this cos Wiki tells me so.

The "four great awakenings" reminds me of the number of times Boris Johnson has, according to the Tory Press over here, "taken back control"....
chaski On March 28, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#20New Post! Sep 05, 2020 @ 15:05:39
@gakINGKONG Said

3. The abolition of slavery (Abraham Lincoln--Republican like Donald Trump)




chaski On March 28, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#21New Post! Sep 05, 2020 @ 15:09:23
@dookie Said

Thanks. I appreciate the time you have spent in answering.

I'm ensconced once again in Costa's. I find it therapeutic, the whole atmosphere. After about three or four weeks of avoiding the news as much as possible, I'm beginning to experience some sort of "release" ( no jokes Darkman..... ) from the "ways of the world."

I think its easy to equate greatness with strength and the exercise of power. Both when looking at individuals and at nation states/empires. The NT speaks of "strength being found in weakness" and thats a whole different ballgame.

Weakness goes with being useless and Chuang Tzu speaks of the useless stinktree, ending with the verse:-

So for your big tree. No use?
Then plant it in the wasteland
In emptiness.
Walk idly around,
Rest under its shadow;
No axe or bill prepares its end.
No one will ever cut it down.
Useless? You should worry!

Mentioning "individuals" makes me think of the difference between individualism and personalism. In Buddhism "individualism" becomes very problematic, with anatta (no-self) being at its heart. Individualism I associate with assertion, of division from others. Personalism is far less problematic for Buddhism - "personalism" assumes that the "other" is also a person. And as persons there is inter-relationship and mutual respect. Thomas Merton, who was deeply involved with dialogue between Buddhism and Christianity saw the question of the Person as one of the main areas of future dialogue.

I would rather reflect upon what makes us "persons" rather than individuals; in the assertion of power, or of supposed "weakness"?

I think I'm drifting away here. Once I was very interested in Roman history, especially as the Republic evolved into Empire. Much to admire in the Republic. Once, one of a conquered people became a citizen of Rome and rose to becoming one of the two Consuls (i.e. the top job!) This in just twenty years. Astonishing really. Much like a Jamaican coming over to the UK with the Windrush generation and becoming PM within twenty years. (Instead of having his landing documentation "lost" and ending up being deported after giving our country the best years of his life)

As far as the UK is concerned, as I see it, much of our perceived "greatness" - for some - is corrupted by nostalgia, for the "good old days", the "spirit of the blitz", Dunkirk and all the rest of it. Further back, the Empire. Great? As Chaski argued, a very subjective thing. Maybe we judge ourselves whenever we reflect upon whatever it is we see as "Great."

I think there is a lot to be said for weakness , certainly at the personal level. In emptying ourselves we can hear the "other" as a person equal to ourselves. I would associate "weakness" with mercy, even with grace. Many prefer power, assertion, enforcing one way upon all. I think in the end they just may end up as nothing themselves. Wanting only a mirror image of themselves - lest they feel judgement and uncomfortable questions - they dissolve into nothing.

Well, I'm off.



A Japanese man, apparently a descendant of Samurai, once said to me, ...with Samurai there is a concept that Samurai are better than other people, but to say that out loud would make the Samurai less...
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#22New Post! Sep 05, 2020 @ 15:31:30
@chaski Said

A Japanese man, apparently a descendant of Samurai, once said to me, ...with Samurai there is a concept that Samurai are better than other people, but to say that out loud would make the Samurai less...



Oh yes, much the same with us English Gentlemen......




Darkman666 On about 16 hours ago




Saint Louis, Missouri
#23New Post! Sep 05, 2020 @ 17:51:14
@dookie Said

Oh yes, much the same with us English Gentlemen......







i didn't know the uk started doing rap before america did.
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