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The Way of the Sage

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dookie On 43 minutes ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#1New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 10:43:02
From the Sutta Nipata, a Theravada Buddist text:-

"Seeing misery in views and opinions, without adopting any, I found inner peace and freedom. One who is free does not hold to views or dispute opinions. For a sage there is no higher, lower, nor equal, no places in which the mind can stick. But those who grasp after views and opinions only wander about the world annoying people"

Well folks, I'm certainly no sage, but I certainly get the gist of this. I do think some people will just keep on banging their heads against the brick wall (instead of staring at it) thinking that the next hard smack will bring some sort of finality, end result, a "win" for side A.

Lest anyone think I am alluding to vague, mystical eastern mindsets that achieve nothing but to go round in circles and sit in the sun, here we have the West's very own John Keats:-

"I have never yet been able to conceive how anything can be known for truth by consecutive reasoning........."

Indeed not.
dookie On 43 minutes ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#2New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 10:58:52
Another point of view (!)....

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.”

― Carl Gustav Jung
chaski On about 12 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#3New Post! Jun 30, 2020 @ 21:56:36
Yes... there is a huge difference between a fact and an opinion.

At a simplistic level: Facts are not based on opinion. Some, but not all, opinions are based on fact(s).

It is said that opinions are like arses, everyone has one. But this is false... yes, everyone has one are, but most people have a lot of opinions.
dookie On 43 minutes ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#4New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 07:51:46
@chaski Said

Yes... there is a huge difference between a fact and an opinion.

At a simplistic level: Facts are not based on opinion. Some, but not all, opinions are based on fact(s).

It is said that opinions are like arses, everyone has one. But this is false... yes, everyone has one are, but most people have a lot of opinions.



Hi, some now claim that there are no such things as facts. I'm a bit loathe to agree as it could be judged as nihilistic. But I do see us as the animal that interprets, interpretation is where we live and move and have our being. And I would rather claim that some interpretations are better than others rather than say some are "right" and some are "wrong".

I've found that a fundamental trust in Reality leads to a lightness towards my own interpretations.

A quote to finish, from Gustave Flaubert:- Stupidity lies in wanting to draw conclusions.
Jennifer1984 On about 2 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#5New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 09:02:03
@dookie Said

Hi, some now claim that there are no such things as facts. I'm a bit loathe to agree as it could be judged as nihilistic. But I do see us as the animal that interprets, interpretation is where we live and move and have our being. And I would rather claim that some interpretations are better than others rather than say some are "right" and some are "wrong".

I've found that a fundamental trust in Reality leads to a lightness towards my own interpretations.

A quote to finish, from Gustave Flaubert:- Stupidity lies in wanting to draw conclusions.



Define conclusion.

Oh, there are facts alright. One day I will die. That's a fact. I'd be happy to be wrong, but I don't think I'm exceptional in any way.

For me, "Conclusion" can be real in a number of ways. The end result of a connected series of statements between two or more people that eventually reach an agreement between them could be a happy conclusion.

Dying is the conclusion of a person's life. We all die, therefore our lives reach a physical conclusion sooner or later.

A individual's private thoughts on a specific question can achieve a rational answer that the individual is happy to accept as the truth.

I can think of several others, but I think you get my drift.

Perhaps we over complicate some issues by trying to be too meaningful about matters that are relatively trivial.

Here's a quote I remember from one of my teachers at school. She wrote this on the bottom of my Chemistry homework, where I'd gotten into a bit of a tangle and somewhat lost the plot trying to be too detailed. She wrote:

"Keep it simple, Jennifer. Keep it simple."

Very good advice.
dookie On 43 minutes ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#6New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 10:27:49
@Jennifer1984 Said

Define conclusion.

Oh, there are facts alright. One day I will die. That's a fact. I'd be happy to be wrong, but I don't think I'm exceptional in any way.

For me, "Conclusion" can be real in a number of ways. The end result of a connected series of statements between two or more people that eventually reach an agreement between them could be a happy conclusion.

Dying is the conclusion of a person's life. We all die, therefore our lives reach a physical conclusion sooner or later.

A individual's private thoughts on a specific question can achieve a rational answer that the individual is happy to accept as the truth.

I can think of several others, but I think you get my drift.

Perhaps we over complicate some issues by trying to be too meaningful about matters that are relatively trivial.

Here's a quote I remember from one of my teachers at school. She wrote this on the bottom of my Chemistry homework, where I'd gotten into a bit of a tangle and somewhat lost the plot trying to be too detailed. She wrote:

"Keep it simple, Jennifer. Keep it simple."

Very good advice.


Yes, I find keeping it simple harmonizes well with a "factless" Cosmos.

(I've found John Caputo a good guide on the ideas raised here, one or two of his books)
dookie On 43 minutes ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#7New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 10:38:22
@Jennifer1984 Said

Define conclusion.




How about, when we think there is nothing further to be said?
darkman666 On about 3 hours ago




Saint Louis, Missouri
#8New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 14:18:22
i think about a story i saw on " alfred hickocock's presents ", it was was called " liking talking to a wall ".

the couple want to get marriage, but the man was broke. the couple went to the man's uncle at his office. now, the uncle really rich as hell, but minus attitude about giving money.

the man explain to the uncle, he need some money to have to get marriage, and start a new life. the uncle told him, that he had a good job with him. the man with support of his future wife holding his hand. that he want to quit not depend on his uncle.

the uncle was mad and disappoint with him, but the uncle told him that he should get marry so early in life, but to wait. the two were getting nowhere in arguing. the uncle said come back at 11:00 pm tonight, after business hours. the uncle had paperwork to, the uncle said to him. i give you final answer then.

so at 10:00 pm, that the uncle was going to some money his vault behind the wall of his desk. nobody knows about this vault. so the uncle open the wall's secret door, inside his vault. the uncle took his money that he had on his desk, went into the vault. he was going walk out the vault's door, but the door accidently close on him, before he realize. he was trapped in the dark. the uncle had two problems. one that no handle on the door inside, so he can't out, and other problem, he had about maybe 12 hours of airleft in the vault. it was friday night, his secretary won't come in until monday.

at 11;00 pm that night, his nephew and his future bride walks in the office, and saw no uncle. the uncle heard them, and was pounding on the wall for them heard him. but, the uncle made the vault sound proof. the couple waiting for him for 15 minutes.

so, the nephew was furious and grab his future wife hand, and said, " i told you, it was a waste of time coming back. it's like talking to the wall ". then , they left the office.
chaski On about 12 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#9New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 14:36:52
@dookie Said

a "factless" Cosmos.


Even a factless Cosmos would have at least one fact.

@dookie Said

How about, when we think there is nothing further to be said?



That is when you sit down with a glass of wine and turn on the music.
dookie On 43 minutes ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#10New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 15:18:43
@chaski Said

Even a factless Cosmos would have at least one fact.


That sort of comment does my head in......

@chaski Said

That is when you sit down with a glass of wine and turn on the music.



"The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits. When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten. The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to."

(Chuang Tzu, translation by Thomas Merton - apparently his entire book a "very loose" translation. The looser the better I say)
chaski On about 12 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#11New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 19:43:48
@dookie Said

That sort of comment does my head in......





Examples:

Some people will say something like what if "this" is all just a dream? Ok... but then it has to be "someone's" dream.

Or

Some people will say that what if "this" is all just a video game? Ok... but then it "someone" has to be playing the game.

Or

Some people will say nothing is real Ok... but "we" are experiencing something, so even it the material world is an illusion, there has to be some immaterial world... some spiritual world... some higher supernatural universe were "we" or "I" or "god" exists.

Even a hallucination is based on something... drugs, neurons, something... sure the hallucination might not be there, but someone is there to experience the hallucination.... even if "it" is all just one consciousness that is having all of these "experiences"... there must be at least one... otherwise there would literally be nothing and no-thing to experience.
Jennifer1984 On about 2 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#12New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 19:58:07
@dookie Said

How about, when we think there is nothing further to be said?



Yep, that too.
dookie On 43 minutes ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#13New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 20:59:16
@chaski Said




Examples:

Some people will say something like what if "this" is all just a dream? Ok... but then it has to be "someone's" dream.

Or

Some people will say that what if "this" is all just a video game? Ok... but then it "someone" has to be playing the game.

Or

Some people will say nothing is real Ok... but "we" are experiencing something, so even it the material world is an illusion, there has to be some immaterial world... some spiritual world... some higher supernatural universe were "we" or "I" or "god" exists.

Even a hallucination is based on something... drugs, neurons, something... sure the hallucination might not be there, but someone is there to experience the hallucination.... even if "it" is all just one consciousness that is having all of these "experiences"... there must be at least one... otherwise there would literally be nothing and no-thing to experience.


Yes, during Lockdown over here, and even before, I delved into the thought of the 13th century zen master Dogen. Zen is not my home ground, I'm very much "Pure Land" where the heart of what practice there is is around the kitchen sink, rather than hours upon a zafu. But I found a lot to reflect upon with Dogen, he seemed very "modern" to me.

Dogen said that "for to be is to understand, that is, one is what one understands."

An aspect of this, for those who like this sort of thing, is Dogen's non-dualistic analysis of reality, where he investigates the "difference" between our dreams and our waking state, between illusion and reality. In a sense, Dogen says, there is no difference! Thus, "all" is illusion, unreal. Yet if so, all is Real, whether dream or reality.

Which very much simplifies things. "In the whole of the universe there us nothing that is hidden".

Well, maybe enough.
chaski On about 12 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#14New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 23:41:33
@dookie Said

Yes, during Lockdown over here, and even before, I delved into the thought of the 13th century zen master Dogen. Zen is not my home ground, I'm very much "Pure Land" where the heart of what practice there is is around the kitchen sink, rather than hours upon a zafu. But I found a lot to reflect upon with Dogen, he seemed very "modern" to me.

Dogen said that "for to be is to understand, that is, one is what one understands."

An aspect of this, for those who like this sort of thing, is Dogen's non-dualistic analysis of reality, where he investigates the "difference" between our dreams and our waking state, between illusion and reality. In a sense, Dogen says, there is no difference! Thus, "all" is illusion, unreal. Yet if so, all is Real, whether dream or reality.

Which very much simplifies things. "In the whole of the universe there us nothing that is hidden".

Well, maybe enough.



I like koans.

I totally get the one "the sound of one hand clapping".

Of course I could never explain it... it is like explaining "blue".... it would take a full on encyclopedia and still not get to the point.

I suppose a "western" koan might be:

> What is Heaven? (I have asked this question many times and have received in return many descriptions "Hell" but have never once received a description of "Heaven".)
darkman666 On about 3 hours ago




Saint Louis, Missouri
#15New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 23:57:40
what you get "the sound of one hand clapping" and a man who is plays infield on a baseball game. who has no arms and no legs?

a baseball fan, who is first base.
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