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Removing Statues Doesn't Erase History

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Electric_Banana On June 28, 2020




, New Zealand
#61New Post! Jun 26, 2020 @ 19:20:25
I don't think they're attempting to erase history

I think they believe that we should just stop celebrating it

The flags, the generals, the symbolism, the monuments...makes it hard for an entire race to forgive and move forward when it's always there where ever they turn.
bob_the_fisherman On July 02, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#62New Post! Jun 27, 2020 @ 03:58:08
@Jennifer1984 Said

Isn't it time that this figure, who commands such a lofty place in our national psyche, be reviewed and other parts of his life, that occurred before 1939, be brought to the table...?


I think this is reasonable. The bad should not be neglected, nor should the good be unacknowledged. If we celebrate those who only did good we will not celebrate anyone, ever. There is a case to be made for being that way anyway, but that is a different conversation.

I am quite happy to "celebrate" him as a great tactician who helped defeat an evil empire (Nazis).

@Jennifer1984 Said
As for your comment that peaceful consensus isn't going to happen, I disagree. I think the dumpings and the vandalism would stop very quickly if there was enough goodwill for the protesters to believe that their grievances were being adequately addressed.


Sadly we do not work that way. We are intractable little critters not given to consensus building. We think we are when we think consensus will lead to us getting what we want, but when others disagree? Not so much.

I think this is a key difference between you and I. On a lot of things you and I agree. However, when it comes to humanity we don't, and that helps explain a lot of the reason for our disagreement overall. Despite the fact that we agree on most things, you and I coming to consensus on most things is as likely as me spontaneously sprouting genitalia in the middle of my forehead - and while such an event may please you it is unlikely to ever happen <-- that is humour ftr It is not intended to be a slight on your character or anything.
gakINGKONG On about 4 hours ago




, Florida
#63New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 08:13:51
@Jennifer1984 Said

Nonsense. Books contain information. You read a book, evaluate its message and then decide whether or not you consider that information valid.

A statue has no such value. It's only purpose is to honour, praise and elevate the subject. There is no information in a statue. It is not history.

If you can't grasp that fact, you probably spend too much time looking at statues and not enough time reading books.




Jennifer1984 On about 20 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#64New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 08:47:16
@bob_the_fisherman Said

I think this is reasonable. The bad should not be neglected, nor should the good be unacknowledged. If we celebrate those who only did good we will not celebrate anyone, ever. There is a case to be made for being that way anyway, but that is a different conversation.

I am quite happy to "celebrate" him as a great tactician who helped defeat an evil empire (Nazis).



Sadly we do not work that way . We are intractable little critters not given to consensus building. We think we are when we think consensus will lead to us getting what we want, but when others disagree? Not so much.

I think this is a key difference between you and I. On a lot of things you and I agree. However, when it comes to humanity we don't, and that helps explain a lot of the reason for our disagreement overall. Despite the fact that we agree on most things, you and I coming to consensus on most things is as likely as me spontaneously sprouting genitalia in the middle of my forehead - and while such an event may please you it is unlikely to ever happen <-- that is humour ftr It is not intended to be a slight on your character or anything.


re my BIB:

Define "We".

I hope you're not including me in that. I'm perfectly happy to strive for concensus. I'm quite happy to give something to get something. It's usually the best way for both sides to come away from any conflict with the feeling that they've got something out of it. It used to be called "Good old fashioned British compromise".

I'm all for that.

Please don't sprout genitalia in the middle of your forehead - of either gender. Whichever set of naughty bits you sprouted, it would only confirm a lot of people's opinions.


I am not in the least slighted by your last comment. I found it rather humorous in a 'cold shudder' sort of way.
bob_the_fisherman On July 02, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#65New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 10:01:42
@Jennifer1984 Said

re my BIB:

Define "We".

I hope you're not including me in that. I'm perfectly happy to strive for concensus. I'm quite happy to give something to get something. It's usually the best way for both sides to come away from any conflict with the feeling that they've got something out of it. It used to be called "Good old fashioned British compromise".

I'm all for that.

Please don't sprout genitalia in the middle of your forehead - of either gender. Whichever set of naughty bits you sprouted, it would only confirm a lot of people's opinions.


I am not in the least slighted by your last comment. I found it rather humorous in a 'cold shudder' sort of way.


Of course we are all willing to strive for consensus, we are just a lot less willing to compromise.

For example, a vote was held on Brexit. One side won. Then the idea was to get out of the EU by any means necessary, but there were those who would not accept this result in the UK. In the interests of "compromise" they should have joined with the people who fought for Brexit in trying to get the best outcome for the British people. They did not seem willing to do that though. Their idea of compromise was that the people should have to vote again (and some of them advocated having the options of stay, leave with a deal or leave without a deal. They did this because they knew it would split the leave vote and guarantee the remain side won. This is not compromise, this is an effort to overturn then thwart democracy).

As I said, we are all willing to compromise if we will get what we want, but are less willing to if we won't. It is human nature. And these days that has become worse because divide and conquer works, we have no broader metanarrative that unites us, and we have fractured into groups, many of whom are not able to find compromise, and the divide is bound to grow.

You see that in religious groups opposing any attempt to preach tolerance of homosexuality in schools (including in the Muslim community). What is the compromise there? Maybe have schools for religious kids that do not teach this stuff? But that will potentially cause radicalisation, alienation and distrust to grow even more.

@Jennifer1984 Said

Please don't sprout genitalia in the middle of your forehead - of either gender. Whichever set of naughty bits you sprouted, it would only confirm a lot of people's opinions.


DiscordTiger On about 17 hours ago
The Queen of Random

Administrator




Emerald City, United States (g
#66New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 14:59:34
I now have coffee on my keyboard.
dookie On 31 minutes ago
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#67New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 15:48:56
@bob_the_fisherman Said



For example, a vote was held on Brexit. One side won. Then the idea was to get out of the EU by any means necessary, but there were those who would not accept this result in the UK. In the interests of "compromise" they should have joined with the people who fought for Brexit in trying to get the best outcome for the British people. They did not seem willing to do that though. Their idea of compromise was that the people should have to vote again (and some of them advocated having the options of stay, leave with a deal or leave without a deal. They did this because they knew it would split the leave vote and guarantee the remain side won. This is not compromise, this is an effort to overturn then thwart democracy).



Well obviously Bob that is one take on events. Possibly written with thoughts of the obvious counter opinions of others here......but who knows? When someone just "loves a good argument" it becomes difficult to credit any genuine sincerity.

I would simply say that "democracy" if it is to mean anything is on-going and self-generating. As one arch brexiteer said well before the Referendum, "A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy". A true living democracy cannot be said to begin and end on 23/6/2016.

It would have been good to have seen what you call "compromise" from the Eurosceptics following the Referendum in 1975 when the UK confirmed its membership of the EU. Instead they continually threw spanners in the works and dragged their feet over virtually every attempt by those in the UK who shared the EU vision to forge a Europe of mutual co-operation and harmony.

I could deconstruct your analysis further, with various cogent and salient points. However, life is too short, and I have now learnt the lesson pointed out to me by others.
Krimmler On July 01, 2020




, United Kingdom
#68New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 16:11:46
Not a fan of statues, I don't think any person, living or dead should have one in their image.
Krimmler On July 01, 2020




, United Kingdom
#69New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 16:12:42
But I do think if you want to pull one down, you have to have the authority to do so.
dihctatr On about 12 hours ago




Upland, California
#70New Post! Jun 29, 2020 @ 21:28:02
YOUR USELESS FIGHT AGAINST MY POLEES RESULTED IN MORE
SIGHTINGS OF NOOSES,KNEES TO NECK ON BLACKS,HATEMEMES ON BLACKS,FREEFORALLS ON BLACKS\
Jennifer1984 On about 20 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#71New Post! Jun 30, 2020 @ 05:35:58
@dihctatr Said

YOUR USELESS FIGHT AGAINST MY POLEES RESULTED IN MORE
SIGHTINGS OF NOOSES,KNEES TO NECK ON BLACKS,HATEMEMES ON BLACKS,FREEFORALLS ON BLACKS\



And your point is...??

If you have one (a point, that is) pray tell..... how does it relate to the relevance of statues vis-a-vis the recording of historical events...?
dihctatr On about 12 hours ago




Upland, California
#72New Post! Jun 30, 2020 @ 07:27:31
my point u know well---
this panicpandering thread had zero effect on blm ire and on power of my polees\
Jennifer1984 On about 20 hours ago
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#73New Post! Jun 30, 2020 @ 08:17:59
@dihctatr Said

my point u know well---
this panicpandering thread had zero effect on blm ire and on power of my polees\



Actually, I don't know your point. I promise you. I tried but fail to see how....

"YOUR USELESS FIGHT AGAINST MY POLEES RESULTED IN MORE
SIGHTINGS OF NOOSES"

....relates to one of my statements such as (see OP): Dumping Colston in the river isn't retroactively condemning him for deeds committed centuries ago, it's deciding that these deeds are not worthy of honour and respect TODAY.

Now, I have no grudge against Elizaweta Polees. I freely admit I haven't read any of her books but I believe she's had good reviews. Besides that, my Russian isn't very good.

I'd certainly not want to get in a fight with her. What has she ever done to me...?

And I haven't seen any nooses. Or do you mean mooses...? I'm not sure. In any case the plural of moose is... er... moose. And they aren't native to south west England.

Now I'm confused. Do you see what you've done..?
dihctatr On about 12 hours ago




Upland, California
#74New Post! Jun 30, 2020 @ 22:16:57
@dihctatr Said

my point u know well---
this panicpandering thread had zero effect on blm ire and on power of my polees\


the title unintelligible\
makes no point\Actually, I don't know your point. I promise you\
u never clarified anything\
this thread a jumbled pile of nonsense like all atempts at journalism by lame o crats
as evidenced everywhere especially the democratplatfom website compared to the rrpublican site be the difference between night and day\
y'all slobs,failures at journalism=why u never understand the point
written by smart people\
bob_the_fisherman On July 02, 2020
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#75New Post! Jul 01, 2020 @ 00:43:56
@dookie Said

Well obviously Bob that is one take on events. Possibly written with thoughts of the obvious counter opinions of others here......but who knows? When someone just "loves a good argument" it becomes difficult to credit any genuine sincerity.

I would simply say that "democracy" if it is to mean anything is on-going and self-generating. As one arch brexiteer said well before the Referendum, "A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy". A true living democracy cannot be said to begin and end on 23/6/2016.

It would have been good to have seen what you call "compromise" from the Eurosceptics following the Referendum in 1975 when the UK confirmed its membership of the EU. Instead they continually threw spanners in the works and dragged their feet over virtually every attempt by those in the UK who shared the EU vision to forge a Europe of mutual co-operation and harmony.

I could deconstruct your analysis further, with various cogent and salient points. However, life is too short, and I have now learnt the lesson pointed out to me by others.


By all means mate, feel free to move along instead of incessantly bang on about how you will not engage with me. You feign wisdom and act like a three year old. It gets boring old son.
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