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Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

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GreatestIam2 On May 31, 2020




Ottawa, Canada
#1New Post! May 16, 2020 @ 13:45:16
Was Judas a hero and most trusted disciple, or a traitor?

Most people see Judas as a traitor in the myth of the crucifixion. Few recognize that Jesus was asking his most trusted disciple, Judas, to turn him over to the Jews and Pilate.

Most are unaware of the meaning of the sop that Jesus gave to Judas at the last supper. Without knowing the definition and meaning of that word, it is not surprising that most think of Judas as they do. The completely wrong way.

A sop is basically a gift or conciliatory bribe, something that seals a deal. That is what Jesus gave Judas, his most trusted disciple. We know he was Jesus’ favorite because he was Jesus’ banker.

Dictionary reference for sop.
Something that is done or given to someone in order to prevent trouble, gain support, etc.
A conciliatory gift or bribe.

Without the betrayal, Jesus would not have died for us, as Yahweh had planned, and scriptures say that Judas also had no choice as that would have derailed god’s plan.

If any blame for Jesus’ death is to be given, it must be to Yahweh, whose plan, scriptures say must come to pass. Meaning that Yahweh would have to control all the players including Judas.

Scriptures show Jesus persuading Judas to do what he would not ordinarily have thought of doing.

Judas believed that Jesus was the messiah who was to rise again to lead the Jews. This lie imposed by Yahweh.

Was Judas a good man doing Jesus’ will or was he a traitor?

Regards
DL
chaski On about 4 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#2New Post! May 16, 2020 @ 14:34:39
Option A. The Jesus is the son if god story is true. The prophecies had to be fulfilled. Judas was one of the key characters and most essential parts of the storyline, Prophecy. If it wasn’t for Judas, Jesus would never have been crucified. Since Judas was pre-selected for this duty he clearly was one of the heroes of the story.

Option B: The Jesus is the son of God story is not true. In this situation Judas was a backstabbing scumbag who turned on his best friend and leader for money. Not a hero.
4d4m On about 2 hours ago




4dforum.org,
#3New Post! May 16, 2020 @ 16:39:28
Judas Maccabeus was Jesus in his prior reincarnation. Judas Iscariot the tax collector was manipulated (probably from birth) because he was a friend or companion of Judas Maccabeus in his last lifetime. That his parents named him Judas was also not a mistake. In this way they attempted to give credit to Judas Iscariot for having been Judas Maccabeus rather than people realizing Jesus had been Maccabeus. When King James edited the Bible he excluded the books of Maccabees.
4d4m On about 2 hours ago




4dforum.org,
#4New Post! May 16, 2020 @ 17:26:43
I should add that Judas Iscariot was being manipulated and the initial question "was he a scumbag?" asks us to judge a puppet. It's true he turned Jesus in but under what duress?
chaski On about 4 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#5New Post! May 16, 2020 @ 18:14:17
@4d4m Said

Judas Maccabeus was Jesus in his prior reincarnation.


Would you share your source for this idea?

It doesn't match with anything biblical.
chaski On about 4 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#6New Post! May 16, 2020 @ 18:21:20
@4d4m Said

I should add that Judas Iscariot was being manipulated and the initial question "was he a scumbag?" asks us to judge a puppet. It's true he turned Jesus in but under what duress?



Again, this depends on whether or not the story and its biblical basis are true.

If Jesus was in fact that son of god and needed to be sacrificed to "save" our sous and fulfill scripture, then Judas was an essential player in the story. In that scenario, Judas was predetermined to play the role of Jesus' betrayer. Judas would not have had any choice in the matter. One would then surely think that God, would not condemn Judas for this.

HOWEVER, if the basis of the story is NOT true... (that is, if Jesus was not the son of god and it was not essential to the salvation of our souls and the fulfillment of prophesy that Jesus be betrayed)... then Judas would have been a backstabbing scum bag.

There are essentially two possibilities here:

1. The story is true, Judas was essential...

2. The story is not true, Judas just betrayed his friend...


No one can "prove" which of these is the reality. "We" can each have an opinion, but that is all it is >>> opinion.


Sure... "we" can invent things like "maybe the Romans tortured Judas"... maybe "they threatened to kill his family"... but those would be invented scenarios that are not based on the story. Thus, if we want to be rational, we should stick with the story as presented...

Otherwise we can invent all kinds of BS... "Captain Kirk and Science Officer Spock met with Judas... Spock used his Vulcan mind meld to make sure Judas betrayed Jesus so that the Romulans didn't change the course of history, thus stopping the Federation from ever being founded....

No, we should not just randomly invent possibilities. We should stick with the story as it is presented. And as it is presented, Judas betrayed Jesus for money. The "why?" is the question. Based on the story it was either a prophetic fulfilling necessity set up by God... OR it was a classic example of a greed.
darkman666 On about 13 hours ago




Saint Louis, Missouri
#7New Post! May 16, 2020 @ 18:39:21
judus had free will, maybe jusus on own came up with the idea betrayed jesus. somehow, judus was thought jesus would take over judus's power over his group, and judus make sure that jesus couldn't it. human nature.
GreatestIam2 On May 31, 2020




Ottawa, Canada
#8New Post! May 29, 2020 @ 17:58:51
@chaski Said

Option A. The Jesus is the son if god story is true. The prophecies had to be fulfilled. Judas was one of the key characters and most essential parts of the storyline, Prophecy. If it wasn’t for Judas, Jesus would never have been crucified. Since Judas was pre-selected for this duty he clearly was one of the heroes of the story.

Option B: The Jesus is the son of God story is not true. In this situation Judas was a backstabbing scumbag who turned on his best friend and leader for money. Not a hero.


Option b is closer IMO.

The story is a myth and we are to analyse it as such.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On May 31, 2020




Ottawa, Canada
#9New Post! May 29, 2020 @ 18:00:51
@4d4m Said

I should add that Judas Iscariot was being manipulated and the initial question "was he a scumbag?" asks us to judge a puppet. It's true he turned Jesus in but under what duress?


The duress of doing what Jesus wanted him to do when he sealed the deal with the sop.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On May 31, 2020




Ottawa, Canada
#10New Post! May 29, 2020 @ 18:03:41
@chaski Said

The "why?" is the question. .


Jesus wanted to test the old messianic prophesy, and failed, as he never returned to rule the Jews.

Regards
DL
GreatestIam2 On May 31, 2020




Ottawa, Canada
#11New Post! May 29, 2020 @ 18:07:18
@darkman666 Said

judus had free will, maybe jusus on own came up with the idea betrayed jesus. somehow, judus was thought jesus would take over judus's power over his group, and judus make sure that jesus couldn't it. human nature.


We have free will in reality, but scriptures are clear that we do not have a free will.

Do you believe reality or the Christian myth?

This link gives the appropriate text that shows that if Yahweh is real, we have no free will to believe or not.

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.


What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL
darkman666 On about 13 hours ago




Saint Louis, Missouri
#12New Post! May 29, 2020 @ 18:43:58
@GreatestIam2 Said

We have free will in reality, but scriptures are clear that we do not have a free will.

Do you believe reality or the Christian myth?

This link gives the appropriate text that shows that if Yahweh is real, we have no free will to believe or not.

Are non-believers doomed by Divine Design?

Scriptures say that God decides if a person will be a believer or non-believer. Those scriptures are shown in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byHYeHN4ZUQ

Those quotes seems to really screw up the free will notion that Christians say God gives us.

The free will that God offers is kind of a joke anyway given the number of people whose free will to live is ignored in the billions of adults, children and babies that God is shown to torture and murder in scriptures.

If the bible and Yahweh are to be believed, and as a non-believer, I, of course, cannot believe it, thanks to God, by God’s design and will against me, then why did God deny me belief or faith?

Even more important to believers, might be to answer the question of; did God make you a believer in things that you can only hope exists and can never confirm?

Are you happy with God ignoring or negating your free will to think as you please?

I have assumed that God’s work of creating both believers and non-believers is working. If that is so, and you believers must think it so, just as I as a non-believer cannot think it is working, --- and Jesus said that those with faith could do all he did and more, --- then there is not even one believer or person of faith that has ever existed.

Either the bible and Christianity is all a lie, or there must be some who can do what Jesus did.


What is your choice of those two options?

Is the bible and Christianity a lie, or is God just not creating any people with faith, --- which would make all Christians who say they have faith, --- liars.

I mean no insult here but someone is definitely lying, if we read what is written and look at reality and listen to Christians.

What do you think is the truth?

Is it just for God to create people doomed to hell even if they wanted to believe?

Regards
DL



i do believe in reality. i'm jewish. i don't believe in harden in the mind or what the man said the video. if christians believe in jesus, that's fine with me. god give birth to people, what they want to do, or follow. i never ever felt comfortable with jesus. somethiong more than a man., i am stay with judaism for tradition and it make sense to me. who i am, still some way try understand religion. simply right, in someways, fits me like a glove going on my hand. why change it now? christianisty never feel right to me. no personal reason, no past or resentment christ. i don't want to ever covert, my personal choice. that's free will!
GreatestIam2 On May 31, 2020




Ottawa, Canada
#13New Post! May 29, 2020 @ 18:51:06
@darkman666 Said

i do believe in reality. i'm jewish. i don't believe in harden in the mind or what the man said the video. if christians believe in jesus, that's fine with me. god give birth to people, what they want to do, or follow. i never ever felt comfortable with jesus. somethiong more than a man., i am stay with judaism for tradition and it make sense to me. who i am, still some way try understand religion. simply right, in someways, fits me like a glove going on my hand. why change it now? christianisty never feel right to me. no personal reason, no past or resentment christ. i don't want to ever covert, my personal choice. that's free will!


I too put man above god the way your religion does.

It is a shame that Christianity did not pick up your ideology when they usurped your version of god gleaned from Sumerian and Egyptian myths.

Regards
DL






.






DL
chaski On about 4 hours ago
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#14New Post! May 29, 2020 @ 19:09:46
@GreatestIam2 Said

Jesus wanted to test the old messianic prophesy, and failed, as he never returned to rule the Jews.

Regards
DL



That may or may not be true, but it does not answer the question: "Why did Judas betrayed Jesus?"
4d4m On about 2 hours ago




4dforum.org,
#15New Post! May 30, 2020 @ 03:12:38
@chaski Said

Again, this depends on whether or not the story and its biblical basis are true.

If Jesus was in fact that son of god and needed to be sacrificed to "save" our sous and fulfill scripture, then Judas was an essential player in the story. In that scenario, Judas was predetermined to play the role of Jesus' betrayer. Judas would not have had any choice in the matter. One would then surely think that God, would not condemn Judas for this.

HOWEVER, if the basis of the story is NOT true... (that is, if Jesus was not the son of god and it was not essential to the salvation of our souls and the fulfillment of prophesy that Jesus be betrayed)... then Judas would have been a backstabbing scum bag.

There are essentially two possibilities here:

1. The story is true, Judas was essential...

2. The story is not true, Judas just betrayed his friend...


No one can "prove" which of these is the reality. "We" can each have an opinion, but that is all it is >>> opinion.


Sure... "we" can invent things like "maybe the Romans tortured Judas"... maybe "they threatened to kill his family"... but those would be invented scenarios that are not based on the story. Thus, if we want to be rational, we should stick with the story as presented...

Otherwise we can invent all kinds of BS... "Captain Kirk and Science Officer Spock met with Judas... Spock used his Vulcan mind meld to make sure Judas betrayed Jesus so that the Romulans didn't change the course of history, thus stopping the Federation from ever being founded....

No, we should not just randomly invent possibilities. We should stick with the story as it is presented. And as it is presented, Judas betrayed Jesus for money. The "why?" is the question. Based on the story it was either a prophetic fulfilling necessity set up by God... OR it was a classic example of a greed.


Jesus came back as Saul, persecuting the Jews. This made the Controllers giggle their nasty asses off. He figured it out along the way, changed his name to Paul and went around preaching. Nero killed him
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