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Jennifer1984 On about 22 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#271New Post! Oct 31, 2019 @ 19:32:01
Meanwhile......

At Addenbrooke's Hospital in Cambridge today, Boris Johnson appeared for a visit and was booed out of the hospital.

Boris Johnson Booed Out Of Addenbrooke's Hospital

Notice that this is being reported on local news in Cambridgeshire, but hasn't been picked up on the national news channels. The story didn't feature on the six o clock news tonight which is surprising because he usually gets publicity on the BBC wherever he goes.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if this story doesn't appear in tomorrow's Sun.... or Daily Mail..... or Daily Express..... or Daily Telegraph.......

Yeah... the media here is really pro-remain, right...?

And for sure, everybody loves Boris, right...?
nooneinparticular On November 13, 2019




, Hawaii
#272New Post! Oct 31, 2019 @ 20:01:17
@Jennifer1984 Said

If you'd been here in 2016 you too would have been swamped with disinformation and propaganda all over Facebook.


As a reminder, 2016 was the election year for President Trump, so we were also swamped with disinformation and propaganda all over Facebook, just about a different topic.
Jennifer1984 On about 22 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#273New Post! Oct 31, 2019 @ 23:01:23
@nooneinparticular Said

As a reminder, 2016 was the election year for President Trump, so we were also swamped with disinformation and propaganda all over Facebook, just about a different topic.



Good point. Taken. So you do understand where I'm coming from then.

Anyway... it's 2300 on 31 October and Boris PROMISED the country.... he said it many, many times over.





We HAVE just left the European Union.

Or have we...? Well, it appears not.

But Boris is a man of his word and he said he'd rather die in a ditch than ask the EU for an extension. Soooooooooo................

We asked a ditch not far from Heathrow - Where Boris said he would lie down in front of the bulldozers if they tried to build a third runway there. He's rather let the bulldozers down on that one - anyway, we asked a ditch what he thought of Boris' promise to lie down and die in it.




Yeah, Ditchy, me old China. He does that.

A lot.
nooneinparticular On November 13, 2019




, Hawaii
#274New Post! Nov 01, 2019 @ 00:04:17
@shadowen Said

Anyway, finally there will be a general election so for me at least it's time to move on to what's happening in the present.


As you wish. Let's talk about something else then. Namely the extension. While I do understand that Boris was forced into taking this route, for the amount of bluster he kicked up before, during, and after the 'surrender bill' became UK law, I'm slightly surprised that there wasn't anything else he had up his sleeve to counter it in some way.

Also, while I personally don't completely blame Boris for reneging on his own promise to be out by the 31st, (He could have still done it even with the bill, but that's a different topic) the backlash was to be expected. When you make multiple grand speeches about how such and such will happen and then it doesn't, trust is put at risk. I honestly wonder how this will affect any potential polls going into a GE.
Jennifer1984 On about 22 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#275New Post! Nov 01, 2019 @ 06:18:47
@nooneinparticular Said

As you wish. Let's talk about something else then. Namely the extension. While I do understand that Boris was forced into taking this route, for the amount of bluster he kicked up before, during, and after the 'surrender bill' became UK law, I'm slightly surprised that there wasn't anything else he had up his sleeve to counter it in some way.

Also, while I personally don't completely blame Boris for reneging on his own promise to be out by the 31st, (He could have still done it even with the bill, but that's a different topic) the backlash was to be expected. When you make multiple grand speeches about how such and such will happen and then it doesn't, trust is put at risk. I honestly wonder how this will affect any potential polls going into a GE.


He did try to circumvent the Benn Act. He had an entire team of (very expensive at taxpayers expense) lawyers go over the Benn Act line by line in the hope of finding loopholes he could exploit, but it was watertight.

In the end he had to settle for his lame and risible "I'm not going to sign the letter" schoolboy strop.

There were any number of things that Johnson / Cummings didn't think would happen, that did. Parliament put on a rare show of unity and although they couldn't agree on how they would deal with Brexit itself, they were united in one thing:

Johnson must not be allowed to subvert the House to his own ends.

Everything that was done to stop Johnson was lawful and inside the rules of Parliamentary procedure. For all the Aussie's bluster about treachery and anti-democratic behaviour, it was JOHNSON who has been the guilty party.

How many pro-remain MP's have had their actions challenged in the Supreme Court...?

Pro-leave have repeatedly attempted to find ways around the rules.

Pro-remain have thwarted them entirely within the rules.

And yet..... we're the bad guys...? We're the traitors...? We're the "anti-democratic" ones...?

As for your question about the polls..... well, I personally have never been too enamoured of polls. People asked in the street about which way they vote may say one thing but where they put their X, in the privacy of the ballot booth, where nobody is looking, can be something completely different.

All the polls said that Remain would win the referendum.

All the polls said that Teresa May would increase her number of seats in Parliament in the 2017 general election.

Boris Johnson is probably at the very peak of his popularity right now, the Tory press has done a very effective hatchet job on Corbyn over the last three and half years and of course, the Brexiters have all the tried and tested dirty tricks that worked so well in the referendum campaign still in their armoury and won't hesitate to use them.

But Corbyn revels in campaigning. He's already off to a flyer with his "Bring it on" speech on Wednesday. He's not afraid of campaigning. It's what he does best.

He's an old fashioned "I'll-see-you -on-the-hustings" challenger. This is what he really enjoys. How that will affect the polls is yet to be seen, but the Tories have things to worry about.

They have to gain seats. They can't afford to lose any. Usually a government might be able to lose some seats and get re-elected, but Johnson has no breathing space in that regard. And with people like Amber Rudd (pro Brexit) defending a majority of only 346 in Hastings and Rye, she is extremely vulnerable. In my constituency (St Ives), the Tory MP Derek Thomas defends an even smaller majority of 312 in a constituency that was heavily influenced by the Brexit referendum.......... and the fishermen and farmers are NOT HAPPY that the government is not going to make up the money that they have hitherto received from the EU but will stop after Brexit.... Thomas told them in 2017 that the Tories would meet those payments. They won't. And the farmers and fishermen are not happy about that. They are not happy at all.

Two very, very vulnerable seats among a number of Tory held constituencies that wouldn't take much of a swing to lose.

Disaffected Tory remainers could change, not to Labour, but to the Lib Dems who have promised a second referendum, thus letting Labour in by default. There is also the matter of Nigel Farage's Brexit party which could split the Tory vote in some seats.

The Tories could be wiped out in Scotland. 12 seats down the tubes already. Some of the 21 Tory MP's who had the whip withdrawn my contest the election as independents. Phillip Hammond - as an MP - is very popular in Runnymede and it's difficult to see a new Conservative incomer challenging him.

All in all, this election is not the done deal that the polls might suggest it is. For sure, there will be some huge victories for the Tories in the Gammon Shires of the Home Counties and East Anglia. Those MP's will increase their majorities. But we have a First Past The Post system here and no matter how big their winning margin, it's still only one seat. And a minority government can't afford to lose any.

And in a hung Parliament, they won't even be able to call on the DUP next time. Johnson threw Northern Ireland under the bus last month, having said he'd never do that. The DUP won't forget it.

Labour...?

Well, the NHS could well be the Tories Achilles heel in this election. Corbyn needs to make big play of that because last week, Channel 4 exposed the secret negotiations already under way to sell the NHS off to American concerns.

The Tories hate the NHS, but they know it's the one thing they can't risk being taken to task on and so they throw a bit of money at it from time to time while undermining it politically.

In the usual course of events they manage to get away with it. Whether or not they can carry off the same old blag this time may have a great bearing on the outcome of this election. Why do you think Johnson is spending so much time visiting hospitals...?

He wants to campaign by making it look as though he is supporting the NHS when in truth he is already presiding over it's sell off. Corbyn needs to expose him on this at every opportunity.

Finally, there is no doubt that Johnson has been damaged politically by not meeting his much-trumpeted 31 October deadline. "Dead in a ditch"...... "No ifs, no buts"........... "We WILL leave on 31 October come what may".

But we didn't.

He couldn't deliver.

How many voters will now believe he can't deliver at all...?
nooneinparticular On November 13, 2019




, Hawaii
#276New Post! Nov 01, 2019 @ 07:26:15
@Jennifer1984 Said

He did try to circumvent the Benn Act. He had an entire team of (very expensive at taxpayers expense) lawyers go over the Benn Act line by line in the hope of finding loopholes he could exploit, but it was watertight.

In the end he had to settle for his lame and risible "I'm not going to sign the letter" schoolboy strop.

There were any number of things that Johnson / Cummings didn't think would happen, that did. Parliament put on a rare show of unity and although they couldn't agree on how they would deal with Brexit itself, they were united in one thing:

Johnson must not be allowed to subvert the House to his own ends.

Everything that was done to stop Johnson was lawful and inside the rules of Parliamentary procedure. For all the Aussie's bluster about treachery and anti-democratic behaviour, it was JOHNSON who has been the guilty party.

How many pro-remain MP's have had their actions challenged in the Supreme Court...?

Pro-leave have repeatedly attempted to find ways around the rules.

Pro-remain have thwarted them entirely within the rules.

And yet..... we're the bad guys...? We're the traitors...? We're the "anti-democratic" ones...?

As for your question about the polls..... well, I personally have never been too enamoured of polls. People asked in the street about which way they vote may say one thing but where they put their X, in the privacy of the ballot booth, where nobody is looking, can be something completely different.

All the polls said that Remain would win the referendum.

All the polls said that Teresa May would increase her number of seats in Parliament in the 2017 general election.

Boris Johnson is probably at the very peak of his popularity right now, the Tory press has done a very effective hatchet job on Corbyn over the last three and half years and of course, the Brexiters have all the tried and tested dirty tricks that worked so well in the referendum campaign still in their armoury and won't hesitate to use them.

But Corbyn revels in campaigning. He's already off to a flyer with his "Bring it on" speech on Wednesday. He's not afraid of campaigning. It's what he does best.

He's an old fashioned "I'll-see-you -on-the-hustings" challenger. This is what he really enjoys. How that will affect the polls is yet to be seen, but the Tories have things to worry about.

They have to gain seats. They can't afford to lose any. Usually a government might be able to lose some seats and get re-elected, but Johnson has no breathing space in that regard. And with people like Amber Rudd (pro Brexit) defending a majority of only 346 in Hastings and Rye, she is extremely vulnerable. In my constituency (St Ives), the Tory MP Derek Thomas defends an even smaller majority of 312 in a constituency that was heavily influenced by the Brexit referendum.......... and the fishermen and farmers are NOT HAPPY that the government is not going to make up the money that they have hitherto received from the EU but will stop after Brexit.... Thomas told them in 2017 that the Tories would meet those payments. They won't. And the farmers and fishermen are not happy about that. They are not happy at all.

Two very, very vulnerable seats among a number of Tory held constituencies that wouldn't take much of a swing to lose.

Disaffected Tory remainers could change, not to Labour, but to the Lib Dems who have promised a second referendum, thus letting Labour in by default. There is also the matter of Nigel Farage's Brexit party which could split the Tory vote in some seats.

The Tories could be wiped out in Scotland. 12 seats down the tubes already. Some of the 21 Tory MP's who had the whip withdrawn my contest the election as independents. Phillip Hammond - as an MP - is very popular in Runnymede and it's difficult to see a new Conservative incomer challenging him.

All in all, this election is not the done deal that the polls might suggest it is. For sure, there will be some huge victories for the Tories in the Gammon Shires of the Home Counties and East Anglia. Those MP's will increase their majorities. But we have a First Past The Post system here and no matter how big their winning margin, it's still only one seat. And a minority government can't afford to lose any.

And in a hung Parliament, they won't even be able to call on the DUP next time. Johnson threw Northern Ireland under the bus last month, having said he'd never do that. The DUP won't forget it.

Labour...?

Well, the NHS could well be the Tories Achilles heel in this election. Corbyn needs to make big play of that because last week, Channel 4 exposed the secret negotiations already under way to sell the NHS off to American concerns.

The Tories hate the NHS, but they know it's the one thing they can't risk being taken to task on and so they throw a bit of money at it from time to time while undermining it politically.

In the usual course of events they manage to get away with it. Whether or not they can carry off the same old blag this time may have a great bearing on the outcome of this election. Why do you think Johnson is spending so much time visiting hospitals...?

He wants to campaign by making it look as though he is supporting the NHS when in truth he is already presiding over it's sell off. Corbyn needs to expose him on this at every opportunity.

Finally, there is no doubt that Johnson has been damaged politically by not meeting his much-trumpeted 31 October deadline. "Dead in a ditch"...... "No ifs, no buts"........... "We WILL leave on 31 October come what may".

But we didn't.

He couldn't deliver.

How many voters will now believe he can't deliver at all...?


I'm aware he tried to challenge the Benn Act, but when that failed I assumed he had something more planned since he never, as far as I knew, backed down from his rhetoric. The fact that he didn't surprised me because while backing down early would have been akin to showing weakness, charging ahead blindly and failing shows incompetence, a much more damaging political trait.

It's not only the people at home he has to contend with. If he actually manages to deliver Brexit, that in itself is just the start of a long arduous process of negotiation with not just the EU but also the other competitors in the global market. Anything he or his team offers is now subject to questions of actual feasibility within his own government. Johnson can't control Parliament, but he needs their okay to make a trade deal of any kind. How many countries will look at his failure to control Parliament and question whether anything he says is worth the air it uses?
Jennifer1984 On about 22 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#277New Post! Nov 01, 2019 @ 23:47:37
@nooneinparticular Said

I'm aware he tried to challenge the Benn Act, but when that failed I assumed he had something more planned since he never, as far as I knew, backed down from his rhetoric. The fact that he didn't surprised me because while backing down early would have been akin to showing weakness, charging ahead blindly and failing shows incompetence, a much more damaging political trait.

It's not only the people at home he has to contend with. If he actually manages to deliver Brexit, that in itself is just the start of a long arduous process of negotiation with not just the EU but also the other competitors in the global market. Anything he or his team offers is now subject to questions of actual feasibility within his own government. Johnson can't control Parliament, but he needs their okay to make a trade deal of any kind. How many countries will look at his failure to control Parliament and question whether anything he says is worth the air it uses?



Oh, thank you, lord. Finally, somebody who understands..!!

Yes, you are right on every score. And it's something we've been saying ever since this fiasco began.

In any negotiation Britain would be what is known as a "Distressed Negotiator", that is, attempting to bargain from a position of weakness and desperation. The other side know this and would be able to dictate all the terms.

Johnson has looked no further than getting Brexit over the line. That is his sole ambition and that is typical of the man. He was the same when he was the Mayor of London. He came up with all sorts of vanity projects such as building an airport in the Thames estuary (if you've ever seen the area, a simple glance would tell you that it's a preposterous idea), the hopeless "Bendy Buses" that (he told us) would solve the problem of large vehicles trying to negotiate the narrower streets of London. "No, Boris... Noooooooo" but he went ahead regardless.

Don't even start to talk about the Garden Bridge or the purchase of water cannon that could never be used because there is a very good law over here that forbids their use. He ignored the advice of the police and went ahead and bought them anyway.

Oh, just read it all for yourself......

The Rising Cost Of Boris' Vanity Projects

The video at the beginning of the article is quite telling.


He is incapable of thinking any further forward than the tip of his nose and as Prime Minister his sole objective is to ensure that Brexit takes place. Beyond that isn't remotely anywhere near being on his radar. When asked, all he will say is that Britain will be able to "Enjoy exciting new trade deals with every country in the world".

Note "Enjoy". He thinks the world is clamouring to run to Britain to give us all we demand at the drop of a hat. He thinks that all we have to do is tell the world what we want and we'll be able to "enjoy" all that it has to offer as of right.

And why "exciting", Boris...? Apart from the disaster capitalists who are likely to profit from the sell off of the country (which has already begun, as Channel 4's "Despatches" revealed to the nation earlier this week). Who the hell is excited about the prospect of negotiations with 100+ other nations, each of which will have to be undertaken individually, each of which would take several years to complete and for the reasons that you so clearly understand, will have a disadvantageous outcome for Britain.

It should be pointed out that Britain already has highly ADVANTAGEOUS arrangements already in place with more than 50 of those countries by virtue of our EU membership, which would cease to exist the moment we leave the EU and would have to be re-negotiated individually, in order to get worse terms.

Boris Johnson has absolutely no idea of how to go about re-negotiating trade deals. He is utterly clueless and the only thing we can say with any certainty is that if he thinks the likes of Japan, China, India or any other country that has had enough smarts to invent the wheel would react either favourably or kindly to "Cunning Plans" he would be far mistaken.

You are quite correct. Brexit is not the end. it's not even the beginning of the end. It's not even the end of the beginning..... it's not even the beginning of the end of the beginning..........

But you try telling Boris Johnson or anybody who has bought into the rainbows and unicorns of Brexit that.
Jennifer1984 On about 22 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#278New Post! Nov 02, 2019 @ 00:34:34
More evidence of pro-remain bias on the BBC

A composite of the individuals the BBC interviewed for 'vox pops' comments about the failure to leave the EU on 31 October.

Every person interviewed supported leave. No point of view by a remainer was broadcast.

All supported Johnson. All said "Let's get Brexit done". All are white, middle class, elderly, and as usual, the BBC went to a strong leave area to ask the public for their comments.



Apparently (according to Auntie), this constitutes a "broad cross-section of the British public". Yes, of course it does. This reflects accurately the diversity of the voting public. Not.

Of course the BBC is biased towards remain.

Of course it is.
shadowen On about 22 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#279New Post! Nov 03, 2019 @ 13:54:32
The positions of the Parties re Brexit

Conservative - To leave under BJ's deal.

Labour - They will look to renegotiate yet another deal with the EU. This deal would seek to ensure that the UK remains in an EU customs union, and retain a "close" single market relationship. This would in turn mean the UK would be subject to ECJ rulings, would have to follow EU rules, and would be unable to strike it's own trade deals with other countries. So really Labour's treaty would be to essentially remain in the EU but have no say in anything that goes on in Brussels. They would take this 'deal' to the people via another referendum where the other option would be to remain under the current arrangement. So really Labour are offering people the choice of remain with some voice or remain with no voice. Nice one. Oh and JC has sworn to "carry out whatever the people decide". Hmm, he also swore to respect the result of the 2016 vote. Difference this time of course is that there will not be a genuine Leave option.

Liberal Democrats - Their official policy (which was announced back in September) is to revoke Article 50 and CANCEL Brexit if they win power at the next general election. It is ONLY if they fail to win power and are unable to cancel Brexit that they will support another referendum. Oh, and on referendums, JS has gone on record as saying (more than once) that she would never respect any referendum result that might see the UK leave the EU.

Brexit Party - Support a clean break Brexit under WTO terms.

SNP - Pro-remain. Support another referendum

Plaid Cymru - Essentially the same position as the SNP.

The Independent Group for Change - Essentially the same position as the SNP.

Greens - Essentially the same position as the SNP

Democratic Unionist Party - Support Leave but do not support BJ's deal.
shadowen On about 22 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#280New Post! Nov 03, 2019 @ 13:55:48
Anyway, rather than have this thread get muddied by posts concerning the upcoming UK elections perhaps someone would like to start a separate thread for that topic...
Jennifer1984 On about 22 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#281New Post! Nov 03, 2019 @ 14:35:37
@shadowen Said

Anyway, rather than have this thread get muddied by posts concerning the upcoming UK elections perhaps someone would like to start a separate thread for that topic...



Regardless of what anybody says, this election is being fought over Brexit. The Tories under Johnson have no objective other than to see Brexit happen by whatever means and whatever the consequences. They pay only lip service to any other issue.

Labour also want Brexit. Corbyn wants it because he sees leaving the EU as a path to his dream of a Socialist utopia. However, he is prepared to accept that Britain must retain a close relationship with Europe and admits that a majority of the people now support remaining in the EU. Corbyn wants to also campaign on traditional Labour causes (workers rights, NHS, Welfare State, etc) but the Tory Press and the BBC / Sky TV news channels will do their best to prevent his arguments gaining any traction in the media.

Liberal Democrats are "Tory Lite" in nature but see Brexit as an issue that they can exploit to take the votes of disaffected Conservative remainers. Swinson is opportunistic but the Lib Dem membership have always been pro-EU anyway. They're not really changing their position, just going for broke on a remain ticket.

SNP see Brexit as the issue that they hope will wipe the Tories and Labour out in Scotland creating a demand for a second independence referendum that it is all but certain they would win.

Greens are the only party with any real integrity in this election. They are not making Brexit the central issue but it is no secret that they are entirely pro-EU and would ally themselves with a government of any colour that engages with them over ecological issues and revoking Article 50

DUP are pro-Brexit but it is impossible to see them allying with the Tories again in a hung Paliament. Johnson shat on them and they won't forget it.

Brexit Party (BXP) It's not quite clear yet whether they will ally with the Tories or challenge them. I'm hoping for the latter. They are a single issue party and are only likely to attract the most hardcore"Give Me Brexit Or Give Me Death" voters. As much as I would love them to split the Tory vote, they're not expected to affect much of anything.

This WILL be the Brexit election. The two things will be inseparable.

At this time it looks like another hung Parliament. How much will change in the next six weeks or so we will have to wait and see.
shadowen On about 22 hours ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#282New Post! Nov 03, 2019 @ 14:44:51
It will not be a solely Brexit election. Labour in particular will see to that. Other parties too however will be aware that they can't simply rely on their position on Brexit to win votes. They need to have something to say about domestic issues such as law and order, the NHS etc etc etc. Now you have attacked others for not respecting the specified parameters of a thread and yet already you have gone off about the NHS. So again, if you want to talk about the GE (which will naturally include some reference to Brexit) then go right ahead...just do so in a separate thread.
Jennifer1984 On about 22 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#283New Post! Nov 03, 2019 @ 15:05:23
@shadowen Said

The positions of the Parties re Brexit


@shadowen Said


Conservative - To leave under BJ's deal.


The suicide party. Johnson has turned the Tories into a single issue party. He is only interested in Brexit and nothing else. Now that he has lost Dominic Cummings, who can't put the surgery he needs off any longer - he has had to fall back on a Lynton Crosbie led group to run his political campaign. Nowhere near as anarchistic as Cummings but just as devious, dishonest and disreputable.

It is difficult to see any future for Boris Johnson after Brexit. He has no real interest in running the country. He doesn't have the skill and doesn't care what happens to Britain or Britons. All he wants is Brexit. He has achieved his life's ambition of becoming Prime Minister and if he can only get Brexit over the finishing line he will believe that his place in national history is assured. His massive vanity will be satisfied and he'll become very quickly bored. He is far too lazy to commit five years of his life to a lot of hard work for which he doesn't have the ability or the interest once he's got what he wants.

@shadowen Said
Labour - They will look to renegotiate yet another deal with the EU. This deal would seek to ensure that the UK remains in an EU customs union, and retain a "close" single market relationship. This would in turn mean the UK would be subject to ECJ rulings, would have to follow EU rules, and would be unable to strike it's own trade deals with other countries. So really Labour's treaty would be to essentially remain in the EU but have no say in anything that goes on in Brussels. They would take this 'deal' to the people via another referendum where the other option would be to remain under the current arrangement. So really Labour are offering people the choice of remain with some voice or remain with no voice. Nice one. Oh and JC has sworn to "carry out whatever the people decide". Hmm, he also swore to respect the result of the 2016 vote. Difference this time of course is that there will not be a genuine Leave option.


Corbyn is a born campaigner. But that's about it. He is ineffective as a leader and very divisive within the party. It's no surprise that 19 of his own MP's went against the party whip and voted for Johnson's "deal". It's thanks to them that Johnson's "deal" is getting a second reading.

What the Aussie is alluding to above is what has become known here as BRINO. Brexit In Name Only. We leave the European Union, pay no membership and have no vote, but are bound to the Four Freedoms and will not be able to strike any independent trade arrangements with any other countries. But we would keep the EU agreements with 50+ countries. In other words, we would be no worse off than we are now.

More and more people are starting to ask now, though, "Why do we need to make new trade arrangements? There's nothing wrong with what we've got."




@shadowen Said


Liberal Democrats - Their official policy (which was announced back in September) is to revoke Article 50 and CANCEL Brexit if they win power at the next general election. It is ONLY if they fail to win power and are unable to cancel Brexit that they will support another referendum. Oh, and on referendums, JS has gone on record as saying (more than once) that she would never respect any referendum result that might see the UK leave the EU.


The 2016 referendum is being increasingly seen as less relevant as time goes on. The message is slowly getting out that we're nearly four years down the line and the demographic has changed massively. More and more young teenagers from 2016 are achieving majority age and the message that they have not had a say in any of this is gaining traction. There is a growing generation of voters who will be affected by Brexit but have been disenfranchised from having a say.

The Liberal Democrats would do well to support a second vote but failing that, an increasing number of voters would be happy to see Article 50 revoked.

@shadowen Said


Brexit Party - Support a clean break Brexit under WTO terms.


Farage's last stand. Will he even stand at all..? He's tried to enter Parliament 7 times and been rejected every time. He needs an electoral pact with the Tories but in Johnson he is up against an ego every bit as huge as his own. Both of them can't get all their own way, but "all my own way" is what both of them want. Something has to give and I suspect it will be BXP.

@shadowen Said


SNP - Pro-remain. Support another referendum


SNP are pro-join. Joining the EU as an independent country.

@shadowen Said


Plaid Cymru - Essentially the same position as the SNP.


Would love to benefit from a Labour collapse. Not much is likely to change there unless disaffected Brexiters and remain voters embrace the Lib Dems. Which is unlikely.

@shadowen Said


The Independent Group for Change - Essentially the same position as the SNP.


Utterly irrelevant.


@shadowen Said


Greens - Essentially the same position as the


Caroline Lucas would make a great Labour leader but she is the Green Party's biggest asset and she wants to stay true to her commitments. She is one of the best debaters in Parliament and it's not surprise at how quiet the House goes when she stands up to speak. The "Yah-Boo" politics falls silent. She is very impressive. The Greens may pick up a seat or two but not much more than that. Those votes could be handy to Labour in a hung Parliament. The Tories sure as hell won't get them.

@shadowen Said


Democratic Unionist Party - Support Leave but do not support BJ's deal.


Support Johnson after what he did to get that deal..? They'd be dead in a ditch first.



****edited to add end quote tag to fix page. -Tiger
Jennifer1984 On about 22 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#284New Post! Nov 03, 2019 @ 15:07:45
@shadowen Said

The positions of the Parties re Brexit


@shadowen Said


Conservative - To leave under BJ's deal.


The suicide party. Johnson has turned the Tories into a single issue party. He is only interested in Brexit and nothing else. Now that he has lost Dominic Cummings, who can't put the surgery he needs off any longer - he has had to fall back on a Lynton Crosbie led group to run his political campaign. Nowhere near as anarchistic as Cummings but just as devious, dishonest and disreputable.

It is difficult to see any future for Boris Johnson after Brexit. He has no real interest in running the country. He doesn't have the skill and doesn't care what happens to Britain or Britons. All he wants is Brexit. He has achieved his life's ambition of becoming Prime Minister and if he can only get Brexit over the finishing line he will believe that his place in national history is assured. His massive vanity will be satisfied and he'll become very quickly bored. He is far too lazy to commit five years of his life to a lot of hard work for which he doesn't have the ability or the interest once he's got what he wants.

@shadowen Said
Labour - They will look to renegotiate yet another deal with the EU. This deal would seek to ensure that the UK remains in an EU customs union, and retain a "close" single market relationship. This would in turn mean the UK would be subject to ECJ rulings, would have to follow EU rules, and would be unable to strike it's own trade deals with other countries. So really Labour's treaty would be to essentially remain in the EU but have no say in anything that goes on in Brussels. They would take this 'deal' to the people via another referendum where the other option would be to remain under the current arrangement. So really Labour are offering people the choice of remain with some voice or remain with no voice. Nice one. Oh and JC has sworn to "carry out whatever the people decide". Hmm, he also swore to respect the result of the 2016 vote. Difference this time of course is that there will not be a genuine Leave option.


Corbyn is a born campaigner. But that's about it. He is ineffective as a leader and very divisive within the party. It's no surprise that 19 of his own MP's went against the party whip and voted for Johnson's "deal". It's thanks to them that Johnson's "deal" is getting a second reading.

What the Aussie is alluding to above is what has become known here as BRINO. Brexit In Name Only. We leave the European Union, pay no membership and have no vote, but are bound to the Four Freedoms and will not be able to strike any independent trade arrangements with any other countries. But we would keep the EU agreements with 50+ countries. In other words, we would be no worse off than we are now.

More and more people are starting to ask now, though, "Why do we need to make new trade arrangements? There's nothing wrong with what we've got."




@shadowen Said


Liberal Democrats - Their official policy (which was announced back in September) is to revoke Article 50 and CANCEL Brexit if they win power at the next general election. It is ONLY if they fail to win power and are unable to cancel Brexit that they will support another referendum. Oh, and on referendums, JS has gone on record as saying (more than once) that she would never respect any referendum result that might see the UK leave the EU.


The 2016 referendum is being increasingly seen as less relevant as time goes on. The message is slowly getting out that we're nearly four years down the line and the demographic has changed massively. More and more young teenagers from 2016 are achieving majority age and the message that they have not had a say in any of this is gaining traction. There is a growing generation of voters who will be affected by Brexit but have been disenfranchised from having a say.

The Liberal Democrats would do well to support a second vote but failing that, an increasing number of voters would be happy to see Article 50 revoked.

@shadowen Said


Brexit Party - Support a clean break Brexit under WTO terms.


Farage's last stand. Will he even stand at all..? He's tried to enter Parliament 7 times and been rejected every time. He needs an electoral pact with the Tories but in Johnson he is up against an ego every bit as huge as his own. Both of them can't get all their own way, but "all my own way" is what both of them want. Something has to give and I suspect it will be BXP.

@shadowen Said


SNP - Pro-remain. Support another referendum


SNP are pro-join. Joining the EU as an independent country.

@shadowen Said


Plaid Cymru - Essentially the same position as the SNP.


Would love to benefit from a Labour collapse. Not much is likely to change there unless disaffected Brexiters and remain voters embrace the Lib Dems. Which is unlikely.

@shadowen Said


The Independent Group for Change - Essentially the same position as the SNP.


Utterly irrelevant.


@shadowen Said


Greens - Essentially the same position as the


Caroline Lucas would make a great Labour leader but she is the Green Party's biggest asset and she wants to stay true to her commitments. She is one of the best debaters in Parliament and it's not surprise at how quiet the House goes when she stands up to speak. The "Yah-Boo" politics falls silent. She is very impressive. The Greens may pick up a seat or two but not much more than that. Those votes could be handy to Labour in a hung Parliament. The Tories sure as hell won't get them.

@shadowen Said


Democratic Unionist Party - Support Leave but do not support BJ's deal.


Support Johnson after what he did to get that deal..? They'd be dead in a ditch first.


***edited to add end quote tag. -tiger
Jennifer1984 On about 22 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#285New Post! Nov 05, 2019 @ 06:03:23
There is a lot of misinformation floating around as to what happens if no party has an overall majority.

As it stands the official majority is 326 seats, this is reduced to 322 based on Speaker and 7 Sinn Fein MPs who don't take their seats. With Sinn Fein standing aside in some constituencies this number will likely be 323 in the new Parliament.

The Cabinet Manual spells out the rules very clearly.

After an election the following applies:

Where the number of seats won by the largest party in an election exceeds the combined number of seats for all the other parties in the new Parliament (i.e. 323 seats) and that party is the incumbent then this party automatically forms the government, the Queen does not get involved.

Where the party which has won the majority of seats differs from the incumbent government then the incumbent Prime Minister and government will immediately resign and the Sovereign will invite the leader of the party that has won the election to form a government.

Where an election does not result in an overall majority for a single party, the incumbent government remains in office unless and until the Prime Minister tenders his or her resignation and the Government’s resignation to the Sovereign. An incumbent government is entitled to wait until the new Parliament has met to see if it can command the confidence of the House of Commons, but is expected to resign if it becomes clear that it is unlikely to be able to command that confidence and there is a clear alternative.

While the incumbent government remains in place it cannot take decisions or initiate anything that is of long term character (i.e. in this case attempt to push through the WAIB).

The options available to parties (including the incumbent government) are:

(a) to form a minority government which, while constantly being at risk of losing the confidence of the House, is likely to be able to pass important items such as a budget and certain legislation (i.e. if the Tories tried this, then we would have the same situation we currently have, possibly "worse" if they have less seats).

(b) to form a government based on a confidence and supply agreement where the smaller party supplying votes does not get any ministerial posts

(c) to form a government by entering into a formal coalition with one or more smaller parties, where generally the smaller party/parties get some ministerial posts.

6. The incumbent PM may only resign once it is clear that a new government can be formed.


Now, applying the rules to this GE and current polling there are the following options:

1. A Tory minority government relying on votes from other parties. This is unlikely to lead to anything at all if the Tories end up with less than roughly 310 seats. There are simply no MPs available to support the Tories (including the Brexit "deal" ). The DUP won't touch this deal with a bargepole, the number of Labour leave MPs will likely be reduced, the number of Tory-supporting Independents will likely be reduced.

2. A Labour minority government relying on votes from other parties. Again, unlikely to be productive but depending on numbers there are more options open to Labour than the Tories in this situation - Labour could rely on SNP, LibDem, PC, Green and some NI votes to push for a second referendum. However, Labour would have to scale down its ambitious programme of changes initially to get its Queen's speech approved.

3. A Tory coalition - this is impossible as there is no party willing to work with the current Tory party.

4. A Labour coalition - this is unlikely as long as Corbyn remains leader. The LibDems won't touch Labour with Corbyn as leader. There is a small possibility, depending on numbers, that the SNP and PC would. However, a three party coalition is messy and the SNPs price would be indyref 2.

5. A Tory confidence and supply government - this is impossible under the current Brexit "deal". There is not a single party which would support this.

6. A Labour confidence and supply government - this is more likely that 4 and 5 but less likely than 1 and 2. However, the same as in 4 applies - with Corbyn leading, the Lib Dems will be hesitant.

Likelihoods of the options:

If Tories >310 seats, Labour with <260 seats and LD+SNP+PC+Green >75 then in order of likelihood I believe the following applies: 1, unlikely 6 or 4

If Tories >300, Labour <260 and LD+SNP+PC+Green >75 then : 1 or 6, unlikely 4 or 2

If Tories <295, Labour >265 and LD+SNP+PC+Green >75 then: 6, 4, 2, unlikely 1

If Tories <295, Labour <265 and LD+SNP+PC+Green >80 then: 6, 4, unlikely 1 or 2


The thresholds for Johnson and/or Corbyn to resign as party leaders in my opinion sits at less than 295 and 255 seats respectively. A Johnson resignation would unlikely change any of the options for the formation of a government, a Corbyn resignation would open up the potential for a formal Labour coalition a little bit.

Based on polling trends and gut feeling I currently think the most likely outcome is a Tory minority government in a (for them) worse situation than the current one or a Labour confidence and supply government, possibly to force Corbyn's resignation as leader.

However, I am hoping that Labour can repeat the success of the 2017 campaign and end up in the 280 seats region while the Tories end up around 290 with the remaining parties making up the rest.

It looks unlikely that any party will manage to get 323 seats. Of course anything can happen but I'm doubtful.

NOTE: The above assumes BXP doing what it announced yesterday including standing 600 candidates, rubbishing the Johnson deal but not doing well enough to get more than 5 MPs.

NOTE 2: Not that the word of Johnson counts for anything, but he is adamant in every soundbite and in all e-mails "he" has so far sent to Tory members/supporters that anything other than a straight win by the Tories means a Labour government. There are also many political commentators who say that unless Johnson gets a majority, he is out.
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