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Two Million March In London For Another Vote

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restoreone On October 10, 2019




, Ohio
#121New Post! Jun 01, 2019 @ 17:39:33
Brexit a house divided can not stand. You protest trump. Yet you can not see that Brexit is your trump.trump won by a numbers game. Have a new vote win by say 52 to 48 percent. You have won nothing! Our 2 nations leaders now spend more time in court than they do in governing our nations. They care more about what looks good not what is good for our countries.Until the people come together our nations never will. It is going to be a slow slide to irrelevance for both our country's.
Jennifer1984 On 40 minutes ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#122New Post! Jun 02, 2019 @ 14:16:15
Trump is here and is already telling us how to run our own country. He says we should send Farage to Brussels to negotiate on behalf of the British government. Farage is Trump's puppet in UK obediently doing all he can to wreck the country on behalf of his master so that US businesses and asset strippers can walk in and pick the bones white.

This is not going to happen. We must, and will, resist with every tool at our disposal.

Farage hasn't won anything by playing a numbers game, he has won by propaganda, putting the vision of what the gullible and easily lied to want in front of their eyes and telling them it would all be oh so easy to obtain if people only believe and follow.... believe and follow.... believe and follow.

And there are plenty who are willing to drink his kool aid.

Also, when the hopelessly inadequate Theresa May leaves her job as Conservative Party leader and Prime Minister in the next week or so, she will be replaced by a man or woman selected for the job of Tory Party leader and with it, Prime Minister, by the membership of the Conservative Party.

The Independent reported that the membership of that party is 71 per cent male, 97 per cent white and 44 per cent aged over 65.

The same research reveals that only 5 per cent of members are aged 18-24 and just 15 per cent of those are young women.

The most important job in the country will be decided by a bunch of male, pale and stale card-carrying Conservative voters. They will be the ones to decide the future of this country.

Tell me again What was it that I've been lectured about in this thread about democratic deficit?

It is a flaw in our political system that allows such an abuse to take place and it is one being exploited ruthlessly and shamelessly by Brexiters who are interested only in their own self interest.

In a perverse way though, it is they who created the Remainer backlash against Brexit that has caused such determined resistance to it.

The referendum produced a 52 - 48 split in the vote, and yet, no account whatsoever has been taken of the aspirations of the 48% of Remainers. Theresa May laid down her infamous Red Lines which denied the possibility of any compromise that would soften the departure and keep Britain on good terms with Europe. Such compromise would have prevented so much of the discord that has transpired since then. But no. For the far right, Brexit must be pure. It must be extreme. It must be absolute.

And that is what has led to revolt by Remainers.

The extremism on the right has produced a reaction among pro-Europeans. Hardly anyone was arguing to overturn the referendum in the summer of 2016. The People’s Vote campaign wasn’t even founded until April 2018. If rightists had moderated their demands, Britain would have left the EU on 29 March. As it was, The Brexit mad Tories have talked as if half the country are traitors. Theirs has been the rhetoric of betrayal and of threats, intimidation and violent retaliation. The appalling “citizens of anywhere” jibe invented by David Goodhart was coarsened by Theresa May into “citizens of nowhere”. HOW DARE SHE..!!

This knife into the ribs of 48% of the population hurt, and wounded. It created anger and inspired resistance.

So great has been the resultant backlash to this that, without any politician organising them, six million signed a petition calling for article 50 to be revoked.

I see the backlash deepening against the Conservative Party. They are becoming so extreme that they are making themselves unelectable.

The British have always been regarded as too moderate... too stable.... too sensible to adopt extremist politics. But no more.

Has ever a national myth been as thoroughly destroyed as the British belief that we are a commonsensical people who reject wild ideologies? The honoured idiots of some at the BBC, the fascistic contempt of the Tory press for the independence of the judiciary, civil service and parliament and the assurance of the Brexit party and the right of the Conservative party that a no-deal Brexit will hardly hurt at all show that whatever Britain may once have been, it is another country now.

The reaction against the extremism on the right is cosmopolitanism, mobile and young. It can be intolerant, for no movement is without prejudices, and if it does not win in the end its members will feel a scaring alienation from their country; not as scaring as the insecurity of millions of Europeans in Britain and Britons on the continent, who have their sense of belonging torn up, but comparable nevertheless.

The Tories will suffer most. A centre-right party can’t push a policy that is so against the national interest and hope to prosper. It is not just ignoring but gleefully scorning the aspirations of the young, the most dynamic sectors of the economy, the educated and the millions of Tories who voted Remain. Like Trump’s Republicans, British Conservatives will become ever more isolated from modernity.

Few will mourn the Conservative party’s passing, if its leaders are suicidally stupid enough to curse it with a no-deal Brexit.
shadowen On 40 minutes ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#124New Post! Jun 25, 2019 @ 13:48:23
@Jennifer1984 Said

Trump is here and is already telling us how to run our own country.


Sorta like what Obama did!

@Jennifer1984 Said

Farage...has won by propaganda, putting the vision of what the gullible and easily lied to...


Of course. Those who hold the same views as yourself a smart, independent, reasonable, tolerant etc etc etc whilst those who hold opposing views are gullible, unthinking, easily lead, intolerant, racist, sexist, far right extremists etc etc etc. You sound like a character straight out of Animal Farm: "Four legs good, two legs bad.” In your updated version it's Pro EU good, pro Brexit bad!

@Jennifer1984 Said

The most important job in the country will be decided by a bunch of male, pale and stale card-carrying Conservative voters.


Ahh yes, your inevitable attack on males.


@Jennifer1984 Said

six million signed a petition calling for article 50 to be revoked.


Don't forget your TWO MILLION that marched!!!


@Jennifer1984 Said

whatever Britain may once have been, it is another country now.


Only Britain isn't actually a country is it.
shadowen On 40 minutes ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#125New Post! Jun 25, 2019 @ 14:04:11
"He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?”
nooneinparticular On about 18 hours ago




, Hawaii
#126New Post! Jun 26, 2019 @ 04:58:27
@shadowen Said

"He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?”


I prefer painful truths to comforting lies, but I'm not the one who has to live with the consequences of your unfounded belief that the UK can win a labor and trade fight with heavy hitters like the US, EU, and China coming out better than when they went in.

To knowingly walk into a lion's den is one thing. To do so thinking it's a candy store is quite another. I may not agree with quite a few things Jennifer has said, but I do agree with her on this. This is a very dangerous gamble the UK is betting on, and national fervor alone will not see them through it.
shadowen On 40 minutes ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#127New Post! Jun 26, 2019 @ 08:49:15
@nooneinparticular Said

I prefer painful truths to comforting lies, but I'm not the one who has to live with the consequences of your unfounded belief that the UK can win a labor and trade fight with heavy hitters like the US, EU, and China coming out better than when they went in.


It's not about "winning" trade fights with anyone. That said, it is disingenuous to assert that the UK WILL end up with worse trade outcomes post Brexit than what they have at the moment. NO ONE knows what the economic landscape will be for the UK post Brexit (if they ever actually leave). A number of economists are predicting doom and gloom whilst others are very bullish about a post Brexit British economy. That said, for many, economic issues were not, and are not, the primary considerations.


@nooneinparticular Said

To knowingly walk into a lion's den is one thing. To do so thinking it's a candy store is quite another. I may not agree with quite a few things Jennifer has said, but I do agree with her on this. This is a very dangerous gamble the UK is betting on, and national fervor alone will not see them through it.


Again, to describe leaving the EU as walking "into a lion's den" is unnecessarily emotive and based on speculation rather than fact. We will only know the financial impact on the UK post Brexit 5-10 years AFTER the event.

Note:
In 2017 the UK had a £95 billion trade deficit in goods with the EU. At the same time the UK had a trade surplus of £41 billion with non-EU countries.
nooneinparticular On about 18 hours ago




, Hawaii
#128New Post! Jun 26, 2019 @ 10:16:21
@shadowen Said

It's not about "winning" trade fights with anyone. That said, it is disingenuous to assert that the UK WILL end up with worse trade outcomes post Brexit than what they have at the moment. NO ONE knows what the economic landscape will be for the UK post Brexit (if they ever actually leave). A number of economists are predicting doom and gloom whilst others are very bullish about a post Brexit British economy. That said, for many, economic issues were not, and are not, the primary considerations.


Never said that. I've stated numerous times that I don't know what the future holds for Brexit and it very well could turn out well. Be that as it may, I would not suggest that someone play Russian Roulette even if they were to win 1 million dollars if they were to live. Brexit is a worse proposition as their is more than 1 bullet in the revolver and you aren't even guaranteed the million if you win.

Pointing out the risk is not the same as saying a negative outcome WILL happen. Hence why I usually talk about Brexit in terms of gambling. Usually doesn't pay off, especially if done with no strategy or planning, but even the average person betting at random has some chance of winning.

Quote:

Again, to describe leaving the EU as walking "into a lion's den" is unnecessarily emotive and based on speculation rather than fact. We will only know the financial impact on the UK post Brexit 5-10 years AFTER the event.

Note:
In 2017 the UK had a £95 billion trade deficit in goods with the EU. At the same time the UK had a trade surplus of £41 billion with non-EU countries.


Not in the least. The UK needs to be realistic about it's bargaining position if it hopes to come out of this well. Walking into a lion's den is inherently dangerous, but does not guarantee mauling or death. Brexit is inherently dangerous but does not guarantee economic or political ruin. With the right tools, knowledge, and planning, a person can walk into a lion's den and come out alive with a pelt. Even a person who has no idea what they're doing has some chance of either surviving or skinning the lion. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking that the UK is Achilles or anything here. This fight will probably end up being quite economically bloody before dividends, if any, show up.

Acknowledging the danger is not 'an unnecessarily emotive' situation 'based on speculation rather than fact'. As it stands currently, Brexit is dangerous in the short term and speculatively wild in the long term.

In fact, I think that the one who has to qualify their argument with "we won't know what will happen until 10-15 years after the fact" is the one who's basing their hopes on speculation rather than fact. Just remember that different doesn't always mean better, and gambling on different being better is very speculative in nature.
shadowen On 40 minutes ago




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#129New Post! Jun 26, 2019 @ 10:52:14
@nooneinparticular Said

Never said that. I've stated numerous times that I don't know what the future holds for Brexit and it very well could turn out well. Be that as it may, I would not suggest that someone play Russian Roulette even if they were to win 1 million dollars if they were to live. Brexit is a worse proposition as their is more than 1 bullet in the revolver and you aren't even guaranteed the million if you win.


Well to me you seem to infer that the most likely outcome for the UK post Brexit would be an economic catastrophe. After all, in Russian roulette there is typically at least a 1 in 6 chance of suffering a truly catastrophic outcome. So on what do you base such a prediction for the UK economy post Brexit? Financial analysts etc are divided. Personally I havent seen anything to reasonably suggest that for the UK leaving the EU would be in any way a form of Russian roulette.

@nooneinparticular Said

Pointing out the risk is not the same as saying a negative outcome WILL happen. Hence why I usually talk about Brexit in terms of gambling. Usually doesn't pay off, especially if done with no strategy or planning, but even the average person betting at random has some chance of winning.


Again, you seem to be inferring that there is a high likelihood that the UK economy will be significantly worse off post Brexit. Based on what? The BoE predicted a doomsday scenario for the economy immediately after a successful Brexit vote...only this never happened. Again, on what do you base your assertion that the UK economy will most likely be significantly worse off post Brexit? You also state that losing is more likely if there is no strategy or planning. Now i certainly don't disagree with that but why (re Brexit) do you believe there is no strategy? No plan?


@nooneinparticular Said

The UK needs to be realistic about it's bargaining position if it hopes to come out of this well. Walking into a lion's den is inherently dangerous, but does not guarantee mauling or death. Brexit is inherently dangerous but does not guarantee economic or political ruin.


So are you saying that all trade negotiations are like walking into a lions den or do you think this would only apply to the UK post Brexit? If so why? And in what way is Brexit inherently dangerous? Let's face it, just about every activity humans engage in could be argued as being inherently dangerous.

@nooneinparticular Said

With the right tools, knowledge, and planning, a person can walk into a lion's den and come out alive with a pelt.


Ignoring the references to a lion's den what you say is true of any trade negotiation, in that the right tools, knowledge and planning can lead to an advantageous outcome.


@nooneinparticular Said

This fight will probably end up being quite economically bloody


Again, what is this prediction based on?


@nooneinparticular Said

Acknowledging the danger is not 'an unnecessarily emotive' situation 'based on speculation rather than fact'.


References to such things as Russian roulette and lion's dens are imo unnecessarily emotive. Furthermore these analogies are presented as a way of explaining perceived facts when they are actually based on nothing more than speculation.

@nooneinparticular Said

As it stands currently, Brexit is dangerous in the short term and speculatively wild in the long term.


So you are saying that Brexit is dangerous in the short term. I am curious as to what you base that assertion on.

@nooneinparticular Said

In fact, I think that the one who has to qualify their argument with "we won't know what will happen until 10-15 years after the fact" is the one who's basing their hopes on speculation rather than fact.


Hardly. I am merely acknowledging a simple reality, and that is that NO ONE will know what impact leaving the EU will have on the UK until (drum roll) AFTER the UK has actually left the EU. Talk of what will or will not happen prior to the fact is simply speculation.

The simple reality is that there are no generally accepted 'facts' to lead one to confidently conclude what the impact of leaving the EU will have on the UK's economy so everything at this point is speculation.

Unlike some people I don't claim to be able to predict the future. So I don't know exactly what the economic impact on the UK's economy will be. That said I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that the impact would be significant one way or the other. However, many pro EU supporters before the Brexit vote were adamant that economic Armageddon awaited the UK the moment a Brexit vote succeeded. Only that didn't happen and hasn't happened. As stated earlier, the simple reality is that no one can possibly know what impact leaving the EU will have on the UK economy until AFTER the fact. Surely that is just common sense.
nooneinparticular On about 18 hours ago




, Hawaii
#130New Post! Jun 26, 2019 @ 13:03:53
@shadowen Said

Well to me you seem to infer that the most likely outcome for the UK post Brexit would be an economic catastrophe. After all, in Russian roulette there is typically at least a 1 in 6 chance of suffering a truly catastrophic outcome. So on what do you base such a prediction for the UK economy post Brexit? Financial analysts etc are divided. Personally I havent seen anything to reasonably suggest that for the UK leaving the EU would be in any way a form of Russian roulette.


I don't really know what the "most likely outcome for the UK post Brexit" would be. The situation has changed constantly over the last couple years. That being said, there are certain things about the diplomatic situation that we must first agree upon for this discussion to go anywhere.

It can be said as fact that the UK is gambling its short term economic gains on the assumption that it can get better trade deals as an independent country rather than as part of the EU. True or False?

There is a chance that this gamble can fail and either result in no economic change or economic damage. True or False?

This chance is increased if the Governmental bodies in charge do not adequately address and prepare for possible pitfalls along the way and make preparations for a variety of scenarios. True or False?

This chance is further increased if the populace is not adequately prepared for any potential shocks to the economy as part of Brexit. True or False?

The type of Brexit had will economically affect the country either positively or negatively. True or False?

Quote:

Again, you seem to be inferring that there is a high likelihood that the UK economy will be significantly worse off post Brexit. Based on what? The BoE predicted a doomsday scenario for the economy immediately after a successful Brexit vote...only this never happened. Again, on what do you base your assertion that the UK economy will most likely be significantly worse off post Brexit? You also state that losing is more likely if there is no strategy or planning. Now i certainly don't disagree with that but why do you believe there is no strategy? No plan?


Why do YOU believe there is one? I hear nothing but 'the experts have no idea what they're doing' and 'May is an incompetent moron'. There is constant infighting in Parliament as the Tories fight among themselves while May seems content to piss away her time asking for things from the EU that were clearly never going to be agreed to.

I have asked multiple people who supports Brexit on TFS, "What is the plan for Brexit" and none of them have been able to give me a plan. Was the plan for May to propose a plan that would be soundly beaten in Parliament to such a degree that it made her look ineffectual? Was the plan for the UK to crash out of the EU thereby tearing up the Good Friday Agreement and saying to the world "We just tore up a treaty in order to rid ourselves of the EU, so would you like to sign this treaty with us that we promise we won't tear up with all our hearts"? Cause that seems to be the way this is going now.

If these actions were planned, I'd hate to see how a dysfunctional Brexit would look like.

Quote:

So are you saying that all trade negotiations are like walking into a lions den or do you think this would only apply to the UK post Brexit? If so why? And in what way is Brexit inherently dangerous? Let's face it, just about every activity humans engage in could be argued as being inherently dangerous.


Ordinarily, smaller economies band together so that they can engage in negotiations with the big boys at the table. If your goal is to have the UK trade with smaller countries in Africa and Island Nations, then perhaps you have the dominant position. I doubt that the UK has the economic clout to conduct trade negotiations on equal footing with larger trading blocs, though. Even assuming that your economy stabilizes after Brexit, there's probably no way that you can engage in negotiations on equal footing with the US, EU, or China.

This is what I mean when I say that Brexit is dangerous. While it is true that all negotiations carry an inherent sense of danger, the difference in the negotiating positions does matter. The US and the EU can conduct negotiations relatively evenly, but I doubt the UK and the US can do the same. While it is true that the Uk can freely walk away from negotiations, there are only so many economies in the world, and walk away from enough of them and it will start to seriously hamper your economy.

Quote:

Ignoring the references to a lion's den what you say is true of any trade negotiation, in that the right tools, knowledge and planning can lead to an advantageous outcome.


Nothing is determined, but I have yet to see the UK show any of the tools, knowledge, or planning required to pull this off.

Quote:

Again, what is this prediction based on?


The UK is not an economic superpower and wishes to negotiate with economic giants. I honestly don't see how this can't get ugly. This is however, a prediction based on past data. The UK economy could quickly balloon to match the US or China to create an equal footing. Anything's possible after all.

Quote:

Firstly it is unnecessarily emotive, as are comparisons to Russian roulette and walking into a lion's den. Anyway, you are the one saying that Brexit is dangerous in the short term. I am curious as to what you base that assertion on.


I could have left it out but then I would just be saying the exact same things I did the last 3 times we had this conversation. I thought an analogy would help.

Quote:

Hardly. Unlike some people I don't claim to be able to predict the future. So I don't know exactly what the economic impact on the UK's economy will be. That said I have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that the impact would be significant one way or the other. However, many pro EU supporters before the Brexit vote were adamant that economic Armageddon awaited the UK the moment a Brexit vote succeeded. Only that didn't happen and hasn't happened. The simple reality is that no one can possibly know what impact leaving the EU will have on the UK economy until AFTER the fact. Surely that is just common sense. Unless you are claiming to be able to KNOW what the future holds.


Predictions are based upon assumptions. Remove one of those assumptions and the whole thing falls apart. For instance I seem to remember that the BoE report that predicted the doom of the UK was based on the assumption that article 50 would be invoked immediately after the vote.

As for significance, it's still too early to definitively tell, I agree. That argument runs both ways though. To say it's still too early to tell but also argue that the impact will probably be not that much either relies on assumptions just like my own predictions. At which point we argue over whether the assumptions are true or likely.
Jennifer1984 On 40 minutes ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#131New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 16:05:25
Breaking News for Bob the Fisherman

Stephen Yaxley-Lennon has been found guilty on a charge of contempt of court at the Old Bailey. He has been bailed to return for sentencing on July 11.

This vicious, nasty little fascist is hopefully going back to prison where he richly deserves to be.

The former leader of the English Defence League, a hard right wing organisation made up of white supremacists and Anti Islam extremists made a covert video of defendants in a trial - expressly forbidden by law - and uploaded it to the internet. It was seen by 250'000 viewers before it was taken down.

Subsequent to that he breached a reporting ban on the trial outside Leeds Crown Court.

As I write, the Sky News feed is reporting on the situation:

16:29
Things have begun to get very ugly outside court:

Police have raised their batons after some supporters stormed fences and beer cans have been hurled at journalists.

16:27
Robinson supporters going hoarse through shouting:

Members of Yaxley-Lennon's support group are chanting: "You're not fit to wipe my a**e," while a woman with a loud speaker said: "You're disgusting, the bloody lot of you."

Some supporters began going hoarse through shouting, while others stood in silent disbelief.


This could turn nasty.
gakINGKONG On about 22 hours ago




, Florida
#132New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 17:25:42
Dear Jennifer1984, Greetings from a long way off. So, what's your take on how this Brexit event is progressing and do you think big changes are still coming and are those changes good or bad for you guys? Thanks.

Chin up and do great things.

Yours,

GAK
Jennifer1984 On 40 minutes ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#133New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 17:57:11
Hi GAK. Thank you for your good wishes and I hope things are good for you too.

Brexit continues to lurch from crisis to crisis. Many things have happened since I last posted on this subject. We were scheduled to leave the EU on 29 March but the government had to apply for an extension of Article 50 so that Parliament could come to some agreement over the withdrawal process. We are now scheduled to leave on 31 October - Hallowe'en - but in the interim period so far nothing has been debated. Instead the Conservative Party has engaged in a leadership election to select a successor to Theresa May.

I don't even want to think, let alone discuss, the abysmally awful choice they have to select from. It beggars belief that either candidate will become Prime Minister and yet one of them will. It's too awful to contemplate.

Boris Johnson is an inveterate womaniser, a proven and self admitted liar and a charlatan of the highest order. As Mayor of London he spent tens of millions of pounds on a bridge that was never built, even more on buses that didn't run and purchased water cannon for riot control that under British law couldn't be used.

Can you take this man seriously..?




His opponent is Jeremy Hunt, the slithery, slimy former health minister who systematically dismantled every advance that the NHS made under Labour (and there were many) and frankly, makes people's flesh crawl.

Both candidates say they will take Britain out of the EU without a withdrawal agreement which means there can be no negotiation with the EU on trade. Britain will have no business relationship with the EU. This will severely affect businesses and jobs. The effect on people's livelihoods will be incalculable.

So much for Hunt's statement "This will be the easiest trade deal in history" back in 2016.

The EU have clearly said they will not re-open negotiations on the deal agreed with Theresa May. Either the government accepts it or leaves without one at all. British business will instantly lose 500 million customers, we will have to trade under WTO rules which will mean Trade Tariffs which will make British goods far more expensive than anything available on the continent and will create a mountain of paperwork for every business trying to do even WTO trade with Europe that will delay supply chains, cause shortages - especially of vital medicines that cannot be stockpiled due to having a short shelf life and a hundred more difficulties that would take too long to list.

The Irish border question has still not been addressed. If Britain does nothing about this it will affect the Good Friday Agreement which is an lawful treaty recognised in international law. Not only that, without the means to control the flow of goods from the European Union into the United Kingdom and thus collect customs and tariffs we will be in breach of even WTO rules and could easily risk becoming recognised as a rogue state.

If - as both Johnson and Hunt have publicly stated - Britain doesn't pay the money it lawfully owes to the EU our international credit rating will plummet and it will be even harder to strike trade deals around the world with other countries who will reasonably question whether Britain is trustworthy.

Would you do business with somebody who tells you to "Go whistle for your money" when you have a legal obligation to pay..?

Britain is in a horrible mess over Brexit and yet people still stick their heads in the sand and say "It's all just project fear. Everything will be alright once we're out."

I'm beginning to wonder whether or not we should just allow it happen and wait for the whole wretched charade to play out. When people start to lose their jobs and it becomes clear that the only people making money out of Brexit are the corporations, the hedge fund operators and the disaster capitalists who will sell what little we have to offer to asset strippers for their own profit the British people will at last have their eyes opened to their own hubris.

Perhaps we need our history to record the awfulness that this thing is going to wreak on this country so that when - inevitably - we apply to rejoin, future generations will never make the same mistake again.
Jennifer1984 On 40 minutes ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#134New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 18:21:27
This is what our country is coming to when an extremist who is rightly prosecuted for serious offences brings his rent-a-mob to court.

This was the scene outside the Old Bailey about an hour ago.



Police with batons at the ready keeping back a crowd who want to storm the court. Utterly disgraceful although I'm sure Bob and the Australian will be apologists for it as usual.

Note the stars and stripes is being flown amongst the mob.
gakINGKONG On about 22 hours ago




, Florida
#135New Post! Jul 05, 2019 @ 18:33:43
Wow that image is startling!

Can you speculate as to why the US flag is being flown?
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