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History Overreacts -- Some Thoughts...

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panetti On February 17, 2005




Little Rock, Arkansas
#46New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 01:32:55
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you pointed out the earth was thought to be the center. that fact du jour has been replaced by the current fact that we know to be true.


But the earth being center was never a fact, it was an error. The fact was always that earth was not the center. But true, some facts do change.

Things can be neutral...I think I can concede on that one. I suppose I could use clarity. Can you give an example?

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man corrupts the facts as he records them into history.


Very true. In fact, the Bible must be spiritually inspired in order to be valid. If this facet cannot be accepted, then the Bible is not validated.

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and yet with each translation tiny changes accumulate.


Right, so people should be educated and not forget the original, uncorrupted texts.

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I really would like to see your stance on women, because the bible of the day wasn't to keen on them having power. IE the pope.


Inequality is interpreted because certain verses are taken out of context. Yes, the Bible tells women to submit to husbands. What many people exclude is that right after that it commands men to respect their wives. The in-context truth is that each submits to each other; they are partners. My stance is women are equal; merely different. One body, many parts, each as important as the others. You don't walk on your hands (for the purpose of this discussion anyway) and you don't eat with your feet, but you need them all. This isn't meant to divide, but to unite, as we must depend on each other's differences.

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how so?


Gosh, where do you want me to start? Every deed I've practiced as laid out in the Bible has always blessed me. Every prayer I've prayed has been answered. On and on...

I'll share with you a recent one, one of the wildest. It's out there, so your left to believe it or not as you see fit, so take it as you will. That said, I had what should have been a fatal car accident last year. I hit an oil slick doing 65 on the freeway and went spinning out of control. Given inertia, I knew there was no way I could stop the car in time before crossing the median. So, I did the only thing I could: in one breath I prayed "Father get me through this".

Car stops literally inches from traffic, throws itself into park. Not a scratch.

Yep, that did it for me.

Anyway, gotta go...I'll finish up the rest later...
jeoin On November 12, 2004




#47New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 01:47:42
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Can you give an example

buddism.

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Very true. In fact, the Bible must be spiritually inspired in order to be valid.

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Right, so people should be educated and not forget the original, uncorrupted texts.

so you read the original bible, huh?


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The in-context truth is

who gets to decide the context? You can't just say parts of the bible are subjective and parts of it are literal. its says submit and respect. I don't know the original words but those english words are not terms of equality.


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as we must depend on each other's differences.
i think this is a good philosphy, and should be applied to other religions.

I am glad you weren't hurt in your wreck, and that god answered your prayer. I mean that.
panetti On February 17, 2005




Little Rock, Arkansas
#48New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 04:08:48
Buddism. Okay, I can go with that, that is a pretty neutral belief system indeed. Just wasn't sure where you were going with that. I definately concede on that one then.

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so you read the original bible, huh?


Not as much as I'd like to. I stick to the NIV myself because it seems the best translation. However, there are time I find myself reading a particular verse and wondering what it literally says in the Hebrew. Like, for example, which kind of love is being used anytime you see the word "love" (Hebrew language has a wide variety that is lost in translation). I want to learn more about the language of the original text and learn more about the variations between modern translations.

So, in answer to your question, I'm working on it.

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who gets to decide the context?


Common sense. My last example is perfect for this. If you simply read "women obey your husbands" without reading on to "men respect your wives" you come off with the inequality conclusion. Just read the whole thing, and context is much clearer. No one "decides" context, you just use your head. It's not THAT difficult as some would have you believe.

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its says submit and respect. I don't know the original words but those english words are not terms of equality.


Actually I was thinking about that too, I want to know what the original Hebrew says. But again, if you read enough of the Bible you get the jist for how things fit together. When you read biblical examples and weigh all the different biblical values together, it becomes very clear. Marriage by design is about dual submission, give and take, a partnership in which neither is superior to the other. But you can't grasp this until you've read enough of the Bible as a whole as opposed to selected verses or chapters.

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I am glad you weren't hurt in your wreck, and that god answered your prayer. I mean that.


Thanks. I had to cut my post short because I was in class, so I had to get up and go all of a sudden. But I watched the laws of physics go right out the window on that one, and belive me cars don't go from 60mph to putting themselves into park. It was really, really bizarre. It was rather funny at the same time though. The car stops all of a sudden, I'm sitting there trying to recompose myself, and I finally take one hand off the wheel to put her in park, only to find it already there. Heh, I literally at that point said "Uh, thanks..."

And that's part of what I'm talking about when I say my life's experience has proved it to me but I can't prove that to anyone else. You can say "well, you just made that up" and I have no way to defend myself. But I firmly believe God reveals Himself to those that open their minds and hearts wide enough. But that's too high a level of optimism for some, unfortunately.

Anyway, there were a few other points I never got to get to:

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it isn't possible that this is true. modern day translation differ in several ways.


You're right, it isn't possible, but it is nonetheless. That's what's so friggin' cool about it. Now I'm not talking about modern translation, I'm talking about the various original texts uncovered in various locations. None of them differ more than -- and I forget the exact figures -- 5-10%, and I think it was actually less...need to look it up again. If these various ancient texts were manmade, then there's no way they'd be that far apart geographically, that numerous, and yet with that small a margin of difference.

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one of them being presentation of the trinity


The Trinity is not a problem of translation, it's a problem of interpretation. All translations of the Bible speak of God's nature the same (at least I haven't heard of a translation saying otherwise), but people interpret it differently. I think the problem is that a lot of people can't wrap their minds around the paradox of the Trinity, so they explain it away. But it's very much there. Also, the word "Trinity" is not a biblical term, just a word adopted later to describe the biblical concept. This isn't an a failure in Scripture, just a failure in man's understanding and not going far enough to understand better.

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equal meaning your church has girl ministers right


No, pulpit ministers are male roles as described biblically. This does NOT mean men are above women though. A good comparison would be that you don't play basketball with footballs and vice versa. Neither is superior to the other; they're just used for different purposes.

Why aren't women accepted as preachers biblically? No one can authoritively answer this but God (or so I think), but I suspect it's a means of demonstrating how we depend on each other's differences to attain unity. Obviously, in a similar light, there are things women are far, far better at doing than men. In fact, if either sex were to be superior, I fear it would be the women. It's a hotly debated issue, but I personally think it's a beauty in diversity by design.

Let's face it, Joe Montana will never play basketball. Yeah, you have the occasional Bo Jackson, but generally speaking the divisions are clear but to no one's detriment.

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Aren't you and the pope reading parts of the same book.


Yes, but I think the Pope is a victim of adhering to blind tradition. But my two cents won't even buy you a coke.

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Or is yours more updated? This didn't work for the mormons.


No, the Bible makes very clear that Revelation is its end. The Book of Mormon and various other texts violate this, which is why I wonder how some people can actually buy into them. It's blatent contradiction. Mine's not "updated", it's the original. And as you've pointed out already, the more I can learn about the actual ancient texts as opposed to modern translations, the better (though even the differences between modern translations is still very minor).

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Or is there just some vast misunderstanding going on?


Misunderstanding + stubbornness. Many people were raised a certain way, adhere to a tradition, or simply don't want to change from the way "things have always been". When you combine that with misunderstanding, you have the religious confusion we have today. In-depth research and open-mindedness is the solution to this problem.

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and where did that come from?


I'd say naivity, laziness, and stubborness, primarily. 1) I believe whatever I'm told, 2) I don't want to put forth the effort to research, and 3) this is the way I've always thought.

I'm glad to say that I'm not among them, or at least I strive not to be. Many of my beliefs have changed as I've researched them. For instance, I used to be against interracial marriage. After research and study though, I learned that stance of mine was flat out idiotic and not biblically supported. Now I've flipped 100% the other way and I think it's an amazing thing that those who have the chance to experience it are really blessed to have the experience.

Study, research, understand, seek truth, that's what it comes down to. Pray for guidance along the way.
jeoin On November 12, 2004




#49New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 05:29:22
i am glad to have these conversations with you. You should be a minister.

i am also glad you see the importance of the original text. It isn't as far fetched to believe they made good copies back then. They were just as smart as we are and I am sure had great techniques. I feel most of the errors are introduced through translation, but can provide no example at this moment. If i have time i want to tell you about the best sermon i ever heard. later though.
I have a few good bible coincedences that you would love to hear, but i would rather share them over lunch or face to face you know. Really good stuff you could use.
I concede the trinity is interpretation, but worry about the vastness of the misunderstanding.
I don't really like the girl stuff. I think it is this way because man wants to retain power over women, not you personally. your to nice of a guy. i think it is an effort to maintain control. thats an opinion only.
I don't take the roles argument to have much weight. It seems like socialisme to me. I may have my term wrong there.

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Mine's not "updated", it's the original.

isn't the muslim faith based on the original half of the bible? I may be way off base. I know of the kuran quoran....

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Study, research, understand, seek truth, that's what it comes down to. Pray for guidance along the way.
look i agree again...
panetti On February 17, 2005




Little Rock, Arkansas
#50New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 05:52:02
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I don't really like the girl stuff. I think it is this way because man wants to retain power over women


It does seem that way on the surface in modern times, but the more you study the more you see that's not the case. In fact, there's a great female leader in the OLD TESTAMENT of all places that singlehandedly prophesized a victory and led her army to it. The story of Esther is about another courageous woman fighting the control of men, as she is left with the duty of risking her position in royalty to save her oppressed people.

Jesus first appeared to women after his death. Jesus stepped up to protect women such as Mary Magdelene.

So if there were a control designed there, then it was done very poorly. Books such as Song of Songs and Proverbs describes women as precious and wonderful.

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I don't take the roles argument to have much weight. It seems like socialisme to me. I may have my term wrong there.


Not like socialism. More like a kaleidoscope.

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isn't the muslim faith based on the original half of the bible?


Well, the whole Bible's original, but yes. Islam, Judaism, and Christianity start at the same point and diverge later.
jeoin On November 12, 2004




#51New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 05:59:52
the bible has two parts.. one was original then added to..

anyways that reminds me.

the sermon was about this big error in the bible. get out your concordance. there is averse that says the testament of the testator doesn't begin until after his death.
but right smack dab in the middle of the two part of the bible.old/new, is this page. that says the new testament. Shouldn't that be after mathewmarkluke and john..
panetti On February 17, 2005




Little Rock, Arkansas
#52New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 06:21:07
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the bible has two parts.. one was original then added to..


Ok, I see what you're saying. But that's also like saying the first half of a movie is the original. But I get the overall point.

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Shouldn't that be after mathewmarkluke and john


I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but I guess it depends on whether you're going by the timeline of what events the books cover or when the books were written. If the latter, then no. The gospel writers wrote the gospels after Jesus' death.
jeoin On November 12, 2004




#53New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 06:30:41
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But that's also like saying the first half of a movie is the original.


kill bill

I will try to reexplain the other thing later.. too sleepy.... i want to play chess.. see ya
panetti On February 17, 2005




Little Rock, Arkansas
#54New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 06:31:33
*phew*

I wasn't sure how much longer I could stay up either...
jeoin On November 12, 2004




#55New Post! Apr 30, 2004 @ 06:34:12
amen
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