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Four Members of Extremist Right-Wing Party Jailed

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bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#76New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:55:05
@dookie Said

ah, you are onto the age old "objective" truth versus "relative" truth, and if there is no "objective" truth then "anything goes".....and so on and so on.....

Basically this is where we part company. I have been working on it for a few years now from an "eastern" perspective, as the "western" hits a brick wall.

I'll leave it there, as your long gone assertion that you "just like a good argument" left me unwilling to engage in serious debate.

All the best


bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#77New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:55:34
Hmm...
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#78New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 08:57:52
TFS going funky again

I responded to you Dookie with a but it got eaten and replaced with my one "hmm" post. That happens sometimes.

Anyway mate, have a good one. Despite our disagreement on things like truth, it was good to "hear" from you again. I am glad you are still with us

Stay safe. Maybe we will talk at another time on some other issue where we have common ground
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#79New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 09:14:15
While waiting for a Webcam to start, I have spent a bit of time looking up this Sweeney thing, trying to cast my net wide. I find that the BBC has refused to broadcast a program that John Sweeney has produced in answer to Tommy Robinson. John Sweeney has said that he has reported from conflict zones, gone undercover in North Korea and other things, but nothing has compared to the abuse he has now received from the "right-wing activist's supporters". Mr Sweeney has had to seek psychiatric help.
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#80New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 09:17:09
@bob_the_fisherman Said

TFS going funky again

I responded to you Dookie with a but it got eaten and replaced with my one "hmm" post. That happens sometimes.

Anyway mate, have a good one. Despite our disagreement on things like truth, it was good to "hear" from you again. I am glad you are still with us

Stay safe. Maybe we will talk at another time on some other issue where we have common ground



Glad I'm not the only one that has trouble with posts. Quite frankly, having four icon options tends to challenge me.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#81New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 13:45:24
@dookie Said

While waiting for a Webcam to start, I have spent a bit of time looking up this Sweeney thing, trying to cast my net wide. I find that the BBC has refused to broadcast a program that John Sweeney has produced in answer to Tommy Robinson. John Sweeney has said that he has reported from conflict zones, gone undercover in North Korea and other things, but nothing has compared to the abuse he has now received from the "right-wing activist's supporters". Mr Sweeney has had to seek psychiatric help.





Yes, I have to say a few of us took an admittedly unwholesome delight in pointing out how hilarious it was watching him get hoist on his own petard. It reminded me of Haman in the Old Testament. I am not a fan of terminating people's careers, but he did bring it entirely on himself. Trying to set Tommy up as a sexual predator - a guy with a wife and three young kids is beyond despicable. I do not wish him harm, but I am glad he and the BBC got exposed.

The media lies about Tommy constantly and seeing him get a bit of revenge was remarkably satisfying.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#82New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 13:47:29
@dookie Said

Glad I'm not the only one that has trouble with posts. Quite frankly, having four icon options tends to challenge me.



TFS does odd things sometimes. Now my post that went missing is back. I swear that TFS exists in a part of the Matrix that has not been fully developed
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#83New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 14:10:48
@bob_the_fisherman Said



The media lies about Tommy constantly and seeing him get a bit of revenge was remarkably satisfying.


As you say, what media is unbiased? I suppose you favour the sources that see "Tommy" as quite a good chap who suffers constant misrepresentation. Tommy seems to be getting a degree of revenge at the moment by making night calls on various individuals, calling them out. Some claim he is accompanied. Many appear to have been intimidated and frightened. But hey, that's Tommy, ha ha.

Tommy claims he is not Right-Wing, nor Anti-Islam, nor an extremist. Much like you.

Doing a round up of various sources, I would say that he is, no matter how he may have been set up according to one video (an answer to which the BBC refuse to show)
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#84New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 14:30:46
@dookie Said

As you say, what media is unbiased? I suppose you favour the sources that see "Tommy" as quite a good chap who suffers constant misrepresentation. Tommy seems to be getting a degree of revenge at the moment by making night calls on various individuals, calling them out. Some claim he is accompanied. Many appear to have been intimidated and frightened. But hey, that's Tommy, ha ha.

Tommy claims he is not Right-Wing, nor Anti-Islam, nor an extremist. Much like you.

Doing a round up of various sources, I would say that he is, no matter how he may have been set up according to one video (an answer to which the BBC refuse to show)



So you have seen the footage of Tommy in Oldham where the police escorted Muslims to his rally where they started throwing objects at his audience that featured quite a few women and children? How does Tommy being anti-Islam square with the fact that one of his Pakistani Muslim friends got up on stage, grabbed the mic and started speaking to his fellow Muslims and saying they ought to stop being violent and listen to what Tommy has to say? If Tommy's Muslim friends (some of whom he grew up and went to school with), think he is not anti Muslim, I guess that could be considered evidence that he is not anti-Muslim.

I have seen 100s of hours of Tommy, a lot of it in real time. I have spoken to people that know him, and listened to others that know him. I have also looked at what the media says and know they lie (although to be fair, I suppose it is possible that some of them are so oblivious to the existence of a real world they are unaware of how wrong they are), because I have witnessed events they reported on.

There is a difference between bias and outright lies. Just like there is a difference between teaching and indoctrination. Yes, there are gray areas in the middle, and much teaching and reporting happens in there. However, sometimes, the lie is obvious if you have the information required.

On the BBC, there was an incident a couple months back where, iirc, an elderly coupled was attacked by a gang of youths who spat and/or coughed in their faces (at the height of the fear of Wuflu). The BBC reported that a community member intervened and was attacked by those youths, and then the police arrived and the youths were arrested and charged. They did not mention the name of the community member who intervened. Why? Because that individual was Tommy Robinson. It is not like they don't know his name, they just didn't seem capable of saying anything good about him. I will try to find the link later (it is really late here and I have to crash)
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#85New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 15:33:38
@bob_the_fisherman Said

So you have seen the footage of Tommy in Oldham where the police escorted Muslims to his rally where they started throwing objects at his audience that featured quite a few women and children? How does Tommy being anti-Islam square with the fact that one of his Pakistani Muslim friends got up on stage, grabbed the mic and started speaking to his fellow Muslims and saying they ought to stop being violent and listen to what Tommy has to say? If Tommy's Muslim friends (some of whom he grew up and went to school with), think he is not anti Muslim, I guess that could be considered evidence that he is not anti-Muslim.

I have seen 100s of hours of Tommy, a lot of it in real time. I have spoken to people that know him, and listened to others that know him. I have also looked at what the media says and know they lie (although to be fair, I suppose it is possible that some of them are so oblivious to the existence of a real world they are unaware of how wrong they are), because I have witnessed events they reported on.

There is a difference between bias and outright lies. Just like there is a difference between teaching and indoctrination. Yes, there are gray areas in the middle, and much teaching and reporting happens in there. However, sometimes, the lie is obvious if you have the information required.

On the BBC, there was an incident a couple months back where, iirc, an elderly coupled was attacked by a gang of youths who spat and/or coughed in their faces (at the height of the fear of Wuflu). The BBC reported that a community member intervened and was attacked by those youths, and then the police arrived and the youths were arrested and charged. They did not mention the name of the community member who intervened. Why? Because that individual was Tommy Robinson. It is not like they don't know his name, they just didn't seem capable of saying anything good about him. I will try to find the link later (it is really late here and I have to crash)


I will have to take your word for it that you have seen "100's of hours of Tommy, some of it in real time" but I feel duty bound to warn you that there are laws against stalkers, at least in the UK. As far as the "some of my best friends are x,y or z", believe it if you will. There are merely nominal Muslims. Who knows just who Tommy's friends are?

Well yes, my elephants memory supplies me with various incidents of profound bias......as in the Miner's strike in the UK when our Right-Wing press rejoiced in constant stories of striking miners using violence against those who were crossing the picket lines to work. A story broke of yet another miner being duffed up and his house ransacked. The press gathered......then dispersed quickly when it was revealed that the miner duffed over was a striker. That's life.

Yes, there IS a real world. But for me it is not found or realised by thinking we are on the "right" side or have sussed out the "real" story.
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#86New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 15:35:45
@dookie Said

I will have to take your word for it that you have seen "100's of hours of Tommy, some of it in real time" but I feel duty bound to warn you that there are laws against stalkers, at least in the UK. As far as the "some of my best friends are x,y or z", believe it if you will. There are merely nominal Muslims. Who knows just who Tommy's friends are?

Well yes, my elephants memory supplies me with various incidents of profound bias......as in the Miner's strike in the UK when our Right-Wing press rejoiced in constant stories of striking miners using violence against those who were crossing the picket lines to work. A story broke of yet another miner being duffed up and his house ransacked. The press gathered......then dispersed quickly when it was revealed that the miner duffed over was a striker. That's life.

Yes, there IS a real world. But for me it is not found or realised by thinking we are on the "right" side or have presuming we have sussed out the "real" story.


Good grief, pressed the wrong icon again!
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#87New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 18:47:42
@dookie Said

Who knows just who Tommy's friends are?



While I am unable to claim 100's of hours of Tommy Watching I have tried to cast around a bit. If friendship can be linked with financial support it seems to be that Tommy's friends are various groups around the world that are described again and again in various media as "Right Wing" and "Anti-Islamic." No doubt the media lies but if it has ANY credibility at all one really does have to question Tommy's true motivations.

Even that which is called Astroturfing comes into play, large well funded organisations seeking to disseminate their views surreptitiously by supposedly grassroots support when in fact there is little or none - often by bogus posts, and bogus accounts on various social media...

..........come to think of it.......😬
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#88New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 22:15:52
@dookie Said

I will have to take your word for it that you have seen "100's of hours of Tommy, some of it in real time" but I feel duty bound to warn you that there are laws against stalkers, at least in the UK.



Tommy rather obligingly puts almost everything he does in the political sphere online in real time, as do a lot of his friends (some of whom I know to varying degrees). It allows us to have multiple perspectives on events. Apparently he believes he has nothing to hide now that his name is out there.

@dookie Said
As far as the "some of my best friends are x,y or z", believe it if you will. There are merely nominal Muslims. Who knows just who Tommy's friends are?


To see you claim some Muslims aren't real Muslims is interesting considering our past discussions. From memory you got angry and stopped speaking to me for pointing that out (although I could be wrong, it was awhile ago). However, that said, obviously I agree with you.

Determining who is and is not a "real" Muslim, and what a "real" Muslim is, is the trick. It's difficult as it involves some acceptance of Islam being a doctrine, or rather, a series of doctrines, to which a self professed adherent more or less adheres.

Were the "real" Muslims the angry young men throwing things at women and children because they believed a thing that may not be true? Or, was the "real" Muslim Tommy's friend who has known Tommy for years, knows he is not anti-Muslim and called on fellow Muslims to listen to Tommy speak about what some Muslim men are doing to young girls in the UK in the belief that they are being "real" Muslims by doing it? Is the real Muslim the attempted peace maker, those who seek to silence, or those who abuse little girls?

How do we even determine what is true here?
Are they perhaps, all "real" Muslims? Are none of them "real" Muslims? Is a "real"Muslim even meaningful? Is there a "real" anything?

I say, we start by reading the text of the koran with the basic understanding that words have a meaning and that context provides clues to the meaning of individual words.

Even in the mystical "east" this is true.

@dookie Said
Well yes, my elephants memory supplies me with various incidents of profound bias......as in the Miner's strike in the UK when our Right-Wing press rejoiced in constant stories of striking miners using violence against those who were crossing the picket lines to work. A story broke of yet another miner being duffed up and his house ransacked. The press gathered......then dispersed quickly when it was revealed that the miner duffed over was a striker. That's life.


Have you ever heard of a band called "The Exploited"? Great British punk band. They had a song, the chorus of which was calling Maggie Thatcher a very unpleasant word beginning with "c" repeatedly. Then, as now, I generally stand with the worker over the political class that seeks to undermine and screw them over.

As I say, the media is never without bias, as people are not capable of being unbiased. However, sometimes the media outright pushes an agenda, and at times they blatantly lie. I am not sure whether the standard of journalistic integrity has plummeted over the years, or whether it is just that with so many people able to report events now and give real time reporting, maybe the media is finally being exposed. Although I think it is a bit of both.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#89New Post! Jun 25, 2020 @ 22:18:19
@dookie Said

While I am unable to claim 100's of hours of Tommy Watching I have tried to cast around a bit. If friendship can be linked with financial support it seems to be that Tommy's friends are various groups around the world that are described again and again in various media as "Right Wing" and "Anti-Islamic." No doubt the media lies but if it has ANY credibility at all one really does have to question Tommy's true motivations.

Even that which is called Astroturfing comes into play, large well funded organisations seeking to disseminate their views surreptitiously by supposedly grassroots support when in fact there is little or none - often by bogus posts, and bogus accounts on various social media...

..........come to think of it.......😬


On the same page in many places on the internet you can find Tommy being called a Nazi by one, and a Zionist shill by another.

Are these two things possible?
dookie On December 16, 2023
Foolish Bombu





, United Kingdom
#90New Post! Jun 26, 2020 @ 09:02:54
Well Bob, I'll just start waffling. Not sure if my rush of thoughts is the onset of dementia or enlightenment. First, I really have no idea what you refer to regarding "nominal" this or that. A merely nominal anything seems so much a part of my view of reality I cannot imagine arguing with you about it, let alone getting "angry". Possibly a breakdown in communication.

I must say your comments concerning your Tommy Watching come across to me as astonishingly naive. You watch hour upon hour of what Tommy chooses to show, you even know many of his friends! You then conclude he must feel he has nothing to hide! Have you ever watched the various films of Leni Riefenstahl of Nazi Germany? Obviously not in "real time" but those 1936 Olympics sure look great, as do the Nuremburg Rallies. What a great place to live! And Hitler? How he loves his dogs and pinching the rosy cheeks of the adoring youngsters all decked out in lederhosen ! And as for Hitler's friends, they haven't got a bad word to say about him. Goebbels even bought his Fuhrer some Disney cartoon films for his birthday which the benign old guy loved to watch and chuckle at.

Can Tommy be both Nazi and a Zionist shill? Of course. Not saying he is, but we are all a mass of contradictions and when our prejudices are unexamined they can issue in many disparate ways.

Love the Punks myself. Real grass roots stuff until commercialisation caught up with them. Read a good Oral History once.

You mentioned Maggie Thatcher. There seems to be a good thread going elsewhere on statues and history and whatnot. Our Maggie would have no wheelchairs at the Falkland's Victory Parade. Now, after the rise of the Paralympics etc etc and the integration of the disabled into mainstream society, maybe Maggie's Statue will soon be in the Thames. One can only hope.

As far as the current state of the media is concerned as I see it we are each responsible. There is no longer an underlying metanarrative that structures our beliefs and gives meaning to existence. Most therefore tend to look and read just as far as their unquestioned and unexamined prejudices go. In the media supermarket back up can easily be found in support for virtually anything. As Eliot said, "humankind cannot bear very much reality".

Getting technical, in a very loose way we come to our conclusions (I would say, "confirm our preconceived opinions" ) dialectically. We think (or, gleaning the media, find) A, then B seems to speak against it, so we move onto C - a slightly modified version of A. If we are bigots, we never get beyond A. If we like to tell ourselves we are "thinkers" we get, via the dialectic, to X, Y even Z. But all in all it is a circle. We simply confirm and "justify" ourselves.

The key is, as per the Madhyamika, to get beyond the dialectic, to find and tread the Middle Way, not a position between two extremes but a "no-position" that transcends both. And as Thomas Merton states, the "madhyamika is compassion". But as you are sceptical of all things "eastern" I'll drop it. Just to say, the "mystical realist" Dogen deals well with the pure reality of language and the power of words, and how they can be used. And as far as Christianity is concerned, "the clues are there"!

Anyway, I'm waffling. Time to go.
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