Iran and friends

4dforum.org,

Jan 06, 2020 @ 19:54:53

From his wiki
"Following the September 11 attacks in 2001, senior U.S. State Department official Ryan Crocker flew to Geneva to meet with Iranian diplomats who were under the direction of Soleimani with the purpose of collaborating to destroy the Taliban.[2] This collaboration was instrumental in defining the targets of bombing operations in Afghanistan and in capturing key Al-Qaeda operatives, but abruptly ended in January 2002, when President George W. Bush named Iran as part of the "Axis of evil" in his State of the Union address.[2]"

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Edited: January 06, 2020 @ 19:55

4d4m

4dforum.org,

#17

Jan 06, 2020 @ 20:02:48

My opinion is that he (edited: Soleimani) was a shrewd politician and negotiator. He worked with the US, Syria and Russian representatives and organized by virtue of his popularity the various Shi'ite militias. This does not make him a good guy.
His threats to overthrow the president of Iran, and the possibility of him becoming the next president would have been concerning.
The question I have isn't so much if taking him out was a bad idea, the question is why now, why not in the past or future?

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Edited: January 06, 2020 @ 20:18

chaski

Stalker

Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,

#18

Jan 06, 2020 @ 20:07:08

@4d4m Said

My opinion is that he was a shrewd politician and negotiator.

Who? Ryan Crocker? Bush? Or Soleimani?

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4d4m

4dforum.org,

#19

Jan 06, 2020 @ 20:08:57

Idi Amin was a hero to the British colonists and Army in Uganda. He rose through the ranks working for the British to ruthlessly suppress popular uprisings against colonial rule. Later, when Uganda was granted it's independence he became the leader of their newly formed military and then overthrew the elected government. The man was a psychotic despot and tyrant. He negotiated a path to power with whatever means available and with the support of whomever he had to.
Soleimani was a shrewd negotiator

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Edited: January 06, 2020 @ 20:09

4d4m

4dforum.org,

#20

Jan 06, 2020 @ 20:10:56

If you read the thread, or at least more than one post it will be easier to see the context. Or are you trying to say I should be more specific in each post?

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chaski

Stalker

Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,

#21

Jan 06, 2020 @ 20:20:12

@4d4m Said

If you read the thread, or at least more than one post it will be easier to see the context. Or are you trying to say I should be more specific in each post?

In post #14 Cpat92 asks you a question about the media.

You then posted #15 that seemed to partially answer the question.

You then posted #16 which referenced Ryan Crocker and President George W. Bush, which seemed to not relate to Cpat92's question.

You then posted #17 which gives your opinion of an unnamed person; maybe Soleimani.

You then posted #19 which references Idi Amin, but ends with the statement "Soleimani was a shrewd negotiator".

Clearly I have read the thread... and yes, maybe you should consider being more specific in your answers/posts as you seem to jump around quite a bit.

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Edited: January 06, 2020 @ 20:20

4d4m

4dforum.org,

#22

Jan 06, 2020 @ 20:21:53

I was comparing Idi Amin to Soleimani,

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chaski

Stalker

Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,

#23

Jan 06, 2020 @ 20:22:47

@4d4m Said

I was comparing Idi Amin to Soleimani,

I got that.

The point is, that when you make 2, 3, 4 or more posts in a row... and the posts are more or less on the same topic... it can be difficult to determine which post is your "answer"... or maybe all of them are your "answer"... but then if you reference 2, 3, 4 or more individuals ... which one are you referring to... or all of them...? Or maybe you have shifted topics (changed horses mid stream)... or maybe you shift topics then move back to the original topic...

You seem to have a free flow of thought going on that is not necessarily focused for others to fully understand.

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Edited: January 06, 2020 @ 20:31

4d4m

4dforum.org,

#24

Jan 06, 2020 @ 20:35:31

noted: I will attempt to be more specific in each post. I'm more used to writing in document format, not short individual posts.

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chaski

Stalker

Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,

#25

Jan 06, 2020 @ 20:42:33

@4d4m Said

noted: I will attempt to be more specific in each post. I'm more used to writing in document format, not short individual posts.

If you click on the little yellow balloon in the lower right, you can quote a person. That way it is clear that you are responding to a specific thing.

If you click on the little yellow balloon with the little read + you can respond to multiple posts.

In either case, you can still continue to respond to a topic/question/idea or not in your other posts. The quoting just helps focus one's intentions.

You don't have to do these

but it sometimes brings clarity.

Note: You do need to be careful that you don't mess with the quote boxes as that can "break" a thread.

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Cpat92

It's all or nothing

Lauderhill, Florida

#26

Jan 06, 2020 @ 22:42:28

@chaski Said

Who? Ryan Crocker? Bush? Or Soleimani?

What is your opinion?

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chaski

Stalker

Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,

#27

Jan 06, 2020 @ 23:43:27

@Cpat92 Said

What is your opinion?

I'm going to give a long answer... sorry.... but I will break it up into three (3) posts.

I think you initially asked about the media praising Soleimani?

> So that one 1st.

I haven't read any of those articles, though I have no doubt they exist. I totally believe you on that point. The thing is that I don't read the editorials and opinion pieces.

I don't need their opinions as I am quite capable of developing my own. And, it seems to me that the opinion pieces from left say heavily left leaning nonsense, and those from the right say heavily right leaning nonsense. That doesn't bother me much. What bothers me is people who read opinion pieces and take them as fact... or news... or lies. Opinions are opinions and nothing more. One can take a set of facts, statistics, the bible, etc and interpret them any way "you" like... and maybe even believe that "your" opinion is actually fact. Sometimes "you" might be right. Most of the time "it" remains nothing more than opinion.

Media outlet on both the right and left are equally guilty of trying to mislead literally everyone. People should be smart enough to know this, not be duped by bulls***... smart enough to fact check... smart enough to make up their own minds. Sadly too many people like to blame the Media for "opinion" articles.

Completely false stories, news based on lies, is an entirely different matter. The most guilty in that regard are FoxNews, Breitbart News & MSNBC... and to a lesser degree CNN. I don't read their opinion pieces and I fact check their news often.

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chaski

Stalker

Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,

#28

Jan 06, 2020 @ 23:47:41

@Cpat92 Said

What is your opinion?

Next:

I've never thought about Ryan Crocker.

I like Bush far more now than when he was president. He was not the best of our presidents, no even close to one of the worse. He lied (or was misled by his staff) about WMD. That has cause us (both the USA and the world a lot of problems).

Soleimani: I don't know much about him. He was a general. From a "performance of duties" perspective, it seems that he was very good. Granted "we" don't like what he did, but I doubt that he likes very much of what the USA does and has done. So, again stickily form a performance of his duties perspective he was good at what he did.

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chaski

Stalker

Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,

#29

Jan 07, 2020 @ 00:05:29

@Cpat92 Said

What is your opinion?

The killing of Soleimani: I think it was a very bad idea.

I remember well a time in the 70's (and perhaps into the early 80's) when assassinations of world "leaders" was kind of a thing.

In particular I remember the Kidnapping of Brigadier General Dozier but the Red Brigades, the attempted assassination of General Alexander Haig...

etc...

Assassinating military leaders and politicians/diplomats ls a bad idea. It does not stop anything. If an operation is in the workings, the killing of the leader rarely if ever stops the operation. At best it might delay an operation, but might also lead to numerous other operations.

One caveat to all of that

On the battle field... in War... all is fair game... at least with military personnel.

Now... back to Soleimani: I'm not sure that the time and place of his killing is/was during battle/war. It seems to me (AND I COULD BE WRONG) that Soleimani, regardless of his motives, was traveling openly and outside the realm of warfare.

As such, "we" would not be very happy if one of our generals was killed in a similar manner. "We" would be very angry and ready to retaliate... maybe even massively.

Soleimani knew what he was doing. I imagine that he knew that there was a proverbial target on his back. I doubt that he would be lying in the dirt in his last moments crying that the USA had treated him unfairly. I imagine he would have been like, Well that blows, but I did put myself in harms way... it was my job. He made is choices as a man, and drew the card of death in the last hand of that poker game.

I won't miss him. I won't defend his mission(s). I can respect him as a military many.

One last thought: It may be that Soleimani has done horrible things... perhaps committed atrocities... even genocide... I honestly don't know enough about the man in that regard. If he has committed atrocities, then F__k him, he got what he deserved.

Still, I'm not sure that the methodology and timing were the best option.... then again, no one asked me before they pulled the trigger.

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Edited: January 07, 2020 @ 00:09

Cpat92

It's all or nothing

Lauderhill, Florida

#30

Jan 07, 2020 @ 00:17:42

@chaski Said

The killing of Soleimani: I think it was a very bad idea.

I remember well a time in the 70's (and perhaps into the early 80's) when assassinations of world "leaders" was kind of a thing.

In particular I remember the Kidnapping of Brigadier General Dozier but the Red Brigades, the attempted assassination of General Alexander Haig...

etc...

Assassinating military leaders and politicians/diplomats ls a bad idea. It does not stop anything. If an operation is in the workings, the killing of the leader rarely if ever stops the operation. At best it might delay an operation, but might also lead to numerous other operations.

One caveat to all of that

On the battle field... in War... all is fair game... at least with military personnel.

Now... back to Soleimani: I'm not sure that the time and place of his killing is/was during battle/war. It seems to me (AND I COULD BE WRONG) that Soleimani, regardless of his motives, was traveling openly and outside the realm of warfare.

As such, "we" would not be very happy if one of our generals was killed in a similar manner. "We" would be very angry and ready to retaliate... maybe even massively.

Soleimani knew what he was doing. I imagine that he knew that there was a proverbial target on his back. I doubt that he would be lying in the dirt in his last moments crying that the USA had treated him unfairly. I imagine he would have been like, Well that blows, but I did put myself in harms way... it was my job. He made is choices as a man, and drew the card of death in the last hand of that poker game.

I won't miss him. I won't defend his mission(s). I can respect him as a military many.

One last thought: It may be that Soleimani has done horrible things... perhaps committed atrocities... even genocide... I honestly don't know enough about the man in that regard. If he has committed atrocities, then F__k him, he got what he deserved.

Still, I'm not sure that the methodology and timing were the best option.... then again, no one asked me before they pulled the trigger.

I admit that the timing seems pretty off. It is also pretty obviously coincidental in the "heat of the impeachment." It kind of makes sense to me. Regardless of the arguments raised that the United States deserved the demonstration at the Embassy.

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