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chaski On March 28, 2024
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Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#31New Post! Jun 21, 2019 @ 23:05:51
@nooneinparticular Said

I must say I am slightly surprised by this. With how much you talk about personal responsibility, I figured you'd lean more towards Libertarianism than Authoritarianism.



It seems to me that most Americans are not in touch with their true beliefs. This might be true for all humans.

Anyway, Americans like to pick a side... a team to root for.. even if that "team" isn't really representative of their beliefs.

"I am a Democrat, because my family has always been Democrats"

"I am a Republican because i watched a YouTube video that said Hillary murdered 90 people."

"Like Trump because he is not "PC"... even if I actually disagree with everything he says."

Etc

"And if someone points out the flaws in my reasoning, even with facts... especially with facts... that proves I'm right, even though I am really wrong."
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#32New Post! Jun 22, 2019 @ 01:10:44
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Yeah, nah. That didn't happen.
There may well be someone here whose politics is very close to Nazi, but they would call me a Nazi for opposing their Nazism and can be ignored.

As I say, left and right don't mean much. Pro and anti freedom are much more useful metrics these days.

Today, supporting freedom from government makes you a fascist and Nazi because the "progressive" left don't know facts.


All you've done is co-opt their original meaning for your own purposes. The Left is now about Social Authoritarianism to you, and the economic policy doesn't mean anything. The Right is now about Social Libertarianism, regardless of the economic policies.

Personally I don't find this a particularly more useful scale then the Left and Right one.
gakINGKONG On October 18, 2022




, Florida
#33New Post! Jun 22, 2019 @ 02:47:52
@nooneinparticular Said

I must say I am slightly surprised by this. With how much you talk about personal responsibility, I figured you'd lean more towards Libertarianism than Authoritarianism.



Greetings.

I felt that the test was inadequate.

I would probably get different results if I could go through and clarify the intent of each question which were vaguely worded.
chaski On March 28, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#34New Post! Jun 22, 2019 @ 03:37:09
I'd like to see one of these tests, but for religion....

are "you" really a christian, muslim, hindu, wicca, "spiritual", buddhist, jew, atheist, etc.

mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#35New Post! Jun 22, 2019 @ 03:37:21
@gakINGKONG Said

Greetings.

I felt that the test was inadequate.

I would probably get different results if I could go through and clarify the intent of each question which were vaguely worded.



But as more take the test there will be more data points to query for the metadata of profiles from the nexus database, and it's AI will adjust algorithms to more accurately match answers to scores.
chaski On March 28, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#36New Post! Jun 22, 2019 @ 03:56:38
@nooneinparticular Said

I must say I am slightly surprised by this. With how much you talk about personal responsibility, I figured you'd lean more towards Libertarianism than Authoritarianism.



@gakINGKONG Said


I felt that the test was inadequate.

I would probably get different results if...



@mrmhead Said

But as more take the test there will be more data points to query for the metadata of profiles from the nexus database, and it's AI will adjust algorithms to more accurately match answers to scores.



As is too common, gakINGKONG has made an excuse for what he believes, rather than accepting and admitting what he believes.

This is the very point of the "test"... what do you really think.

If the results are in line with your proclaimed political position: Great.

If the results are NOT in line with your proclaimed political position YOU should re-evaluate your stance.

This is a very simple and straightforward idea.

What do you really think?

Some people need to wake the f__k up and realize that they do not actually believe in the things that they promote.

It is really very simple... be honest... especially with yourself.
chaski On March 28, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#37New Post! Jun 22, 2019 @ 04:02:24
@chaski Said

As is too common, gakINGKONG has made an excuse for what he believes, rather than accepting and admitting what he believes.

This is the very point of the "test"... what do you really think.

If the results are in line with your proclaimed political position: Great.

If the results are NOT in line with your proclaimed political position YOU should re-evaluate your stance.

This is a very simple and straightforward idea.

What do you really think?

Some people need to wake the f__k up and realize that they do not actually believe in the things that they promote.

It is really very simple... be honest... especially with yourself.



And, of course, by saying that I am being immature, insulting, childish, "punching" people, being rude, acting like a jackass, etc.

There is no chance in the world (let alone the universe) that I am fairly suggesting that people be honest with themselves and others... whatever their opinions are.

nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#38New Post! Jun 22, 2019 @ 04:46:20
@gakINGKONG Said

Greetings.

I felt that the test was inadequate.

I would probably get different results if I could go through and clarify the intent of each question which were vaguely worded.


While I will admit that some of the questions were hard to pin down, I kind of doubt that it would be enough to throw you into another category.

Like, it gave me a rating that was actually pretty deep into Libetarianism, but you espouse Libertarian views way more than I do I feel. So either you're not as Libertarian as you like to believe, or the test pegged someone who should have been pretty close to Ayn Rand as slightly Authoritarian.

That being said, believe what you want. No skin off my nose either way.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#39New Post! Jun 25, 2019 @ 09:17:24
@nooneinparticular Said

Nazism also pushed:

A big pining for a bygone age that they attempted to regain (decidedly not Progressive)


Yes, I agree that race based politics and calls for social justice are not "progressive," however, now that you are also a Nazi, do you think Nazism is on the left or right?

@nooneinparticular Said
A preserving of the concepts of private property and entrepreneurship, just with all the scapegoats gone (decidedly not a Collectivist or Communist stance)


With all means of production brought to heel under the jackboot of government - definitely not a right wing idea.

Like today's "progressive" purveyors of race based social justice, Hitler was happy for corporations to remain privately owned, as long as they do what they're told.

And entrepreneurship in Nazi Germany was always considered subservient to the state.

Hitler was clear that the collective good outweighed the good of the individual (you can find quotes from him stating this almost exactly).

@nooneinparticular Said
Complete destruction, stigmatization, and camp internment of people joining or maintaining unions or collectivist bargaining tactics of any kind, including striking (VERY decidedly not Left, or Collectivist)


How strong is the union movement in the average socialist state? When the government has control of the means of production (as happened in Germany for the most part), a union is either in lockstep with, or opposing the government that acts for the "good of the people."

The left does not countenance such folly.

@nooneinparticular Said
Economically, Hitler was rather central in his policies. He union busted, but also had national healthcare. He wanted control of the economy, but only to allow him to finance a war machine that would allow him to plunder his neighbors, not to support the general population. Etc. etc.


I suppose this depends how we define right, left and centre economically.
Right wing economics is generally leaning towards a _laissez faire_ model (that I oppose). We can call Hitler's model many things, but not that.

@nooneinparticular Said
Whether or not you believe Hitler to be center left or center right largely comes down to a counting game, but he was most definitely center something. His policies are all over the place politically.


To me he was just another branch of communism, like Mussolini and the fascist movement.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#40New Post! Jun 25, 2019 @ 09:25:06
@nooneinparticular Said

All you've done is co-opt their original meaning for your own purposes. The Left is now about Social Authoritarianism to you, and the economic policy doesn't mean anything. The Right is now about Social Libertarianism, regardless of the economic policies.

Personally I don't find this a particularly more useful scale then the Left and Right one.


Not really. I don't think left and right mean much these days. More useful metrics are now based around ideas on freedom than ideas on economic models. That's not to say that can't and won't change in the future, but for now, left and right are largely irrelevant.

Tommy Robinson, for example, is called "far right" for wanting to protect workers from the culturally suicidal policies of the "left wing" chattering class who fear protecting workers will impede their overseas holidays. Under these circumstances left and right are meaningless.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#41New Post! Jun 25, 2019 @ 09:27:02
@chaski Said




Touche...
Me needs more proofreading (or even any proofreading)
chaski On March 28, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#42New Post! Jun 25, 2019 @ 17:24:07
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Touche...
Me needs more proofreading (or even any proofreading)


We all make mistakes.
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#43New Post! Jun 26, 2019 @ 03:23:06
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Not really. I don't think left and right mean much these days. More useful metrics are now based around ideas on freedom than ideas on economic models. That's not to say that can't and won't change in the future, but for now, left and right are largely irrelevant.

Tommy Robinson, for example, is called "far right" for wanting to protect workers from the culturally suicidal policies of the "left wing" chattering class who fear protecting workers will impede their overseas holidays. Under these circumstances left and right are meaningless.


I don't understand. Are you attempting to argue that Tommy Robinson, a person most notable for their interactions with UKIP is not a Right leaning person? Or do you simply object to the completely arbitrary and pointless moniker of Far Right specifically, of which has no bearing on whether or not his policies and stances are at all Right leaning?

To propose that the distinction between Left and Right is meaningless simply because the monikers of Far Left and Right are nebulous is ridiculous on the face of it.
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#44New Post! Jun 26, 2019 @ 04:36:58
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Yes, I agree that race based politics and calls for social justice are not "progressive," however, now that you are also a Nazi, do you think Nazism is on the left or right?


Ah, I'm a Nazi now am I? Even by your own warped definition of the Right and Left, I still wouldn't fall under that label. Tell me how a centrist Libertarian becomes, based on your own terminology, an Authoritarian Left wing extremist under your definitions, hm? I was under the impression that you considered yourself a centrist Libertarian. If that's the case, wouldn't that make the initial test spot on, lumping you in together with Ghandi and Hitler if it does the same for me?

As to your question, I already answered that. Economically centrist and heavily authoritarian.

Quote:

With all means of production brought to heel under the jackboot of government - definitely not a right wing idea.

Like today's "progressive" purveyors of race based social justice, Hitler was happy for corporations to remain privately owned, as long as they do what they're told.

And entrepreneurship in Nazi Germany was always considered subservient to the state.


So a version of Communism allows for private ownership and entrepreneurship? Is that the story you're going with? So Communism both does and doesn't allow for private ownership and entrepreneurship? And Nazi Germany employed a type of Communism in which such things were still allowed? What is the name of this type of Communism that Nazi Germany employed?

Quote:

Hitler was clear that the collective good outweighed the good of the individual (you can find quotes from him stating this almost exactly).


And that's a purely Left leaning ideal is it? Does that make Trump's tariff wars a Left leaning or a Right leaning policy?

You're saying that if the Government exerts ANY control, it is automatically a left leaning policy? So does that make border control a Left leaning policy? But wait, you've been on here decrying the Left's porous border policy that is 'actively destroying the West', so how can the Left have both a porous border policy and a controlling one?

Quote:

How strong is the union movement in the average socialist state? When the government has control of the means of production (as happened in Germany for the most part), a union is either in lockstep with, or opposing the government that acts for the "good of the people."

The left does not countenance such folly.


So a union is either working with or against the government. This is true, but it means nothing. As to the political power of the unions, that depends largely on that pesky democracy principle, and as such any power they have, greater than being allowed to exist, is entirely reliant on the voting population. Their relative strength compared to each other means nothing. Now this would be different if we were talking about communist countries, but we aren't. We're talking about socialist ones.

Quote:

I suppose this depends how we define right, left and centre economically.
Right wing economics is generally leaning towards a _laissez faire_ model (that I oppose). We can call Hitler's model many things, but not that.


Right wing economics is not just about a laissez faire marketplace. In fact, I'd argue that it's just a consequence of the Libertarian's dislike of regulation in general and not an end goal of Right wing economics. Right wing economics is concerned chiefly with the operation of business both small and large. This branch of economics is concerned chiefly with the maintaining of a competitive market, not a free one. Even at the, in their eyes, short term cost of poorer working conditions and lower wages. Contrast this with Left economic policy which places emphasis on worker well being and wages, even if it might not be the healthiest thing for the company at large.

These two schools of thought stem from two very different but fundamental beliefs about who drives the economy. The Right believes that it is ultimately the corporations that drive the economy, and as such give them as much support to do their business as they can. The Left believes it is consumers and workers that drive the economy, and consequentially they strive to support workers and consumers.

Let me ask you something. Is corporate welfare a Left leaning or a Right leaning economic policy? Is the military-industrial complex a Left leaning or a Right leaning economic institution? Is providing support for small businesses so they don't get crushed under big business a Left or Right leaning policy? Is trust and monopoly busting a Left or Right leaning policy?

Quote:

To me he was just another branch of communism, like Mussolini and the fascist movement.


What you believe about facts is irrelevant to whether or not they are facts. I believe you've said this yourself before.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#45New Post! Jun 26, 2019 @ 06:49:31
@nooneinparticular Said

Ah, I'm a Nazi now am I? Even by your own warped definition of the Right and Left, I still wouldn't fall under that label.


Try turning on sarcasm/humor and reread. Most of the time the failure to red my stuff as being typically "Aussie" banter (not always, but usually), will lead to misunderstanding. I know I shouldn't, but it is the way I talk... It really is a cultural thing. Do ot take me literally... But having said that my Nazi fren...
Meh. I get called a Nazi, far right, fascist etc., for believing people should be free to speak, and any opposition to Nazi ideas like those expressed above about race based social justice are apt to have you called a Nazi.

I agree that the claim is absurd, but that's the way the cookie rolls.

@nooneinparticular Said
Tell me how a centrist Libertarian becomes, based on your own terminology, an Authoritarian Left wing extremist under your definitions, hm? I was under the impression that you considered yourself a centrist Libertarian. If that's the case, wouldn't that make the initial test spot on, lumping you in together with Ghandi and Hitler if it does the same for me?


It falls under the "everyone who disagrees with my Nazim is a Nazi" thing that our progressive frens seem to enjoy so much. The are earnest in their stupid, I'll grant them that.

@nooneinparticular Said
As to your question, I already answered that. Economically centrist and heavily authoritarian.


I'm not sure where authoritarian fits in the right wing way of doing things, tbh. Naturally, any group with power can tend toward being excessively controlling, but when it comes to economics at least, the right is notable for a lack of totalitarianism, whereas the left's demand for violent revolution kind of incorporates brutality into its general theme.

@nooneinparticular Said
So a version of Communism allows for private ownership and entrepreneurship? Is that the story you're going with? So Communism both does and doesn't allow for private ownership and entrepreneurship? And Nazi Germany employed a type of Communism in which such things were still allowed? What is the name of this type of Communism that Nazi Germany employed?


Well, it is the kind of thing pushed by progressives today. They want to strictly control, not have government own and run, the means of production. Are you now claiming that the 'progressive' left is on the right?

@nooneinparticular Said
And that's a purely Left leaning ideal is it? Does that make Trump's tariff wars a Left leaning or a Right leaning policy?


Does China's tariffs make them far right? What about their nationalism?
Again, I think right and left have outlived their use, but protecting your own workforce is surely not only a right wing thing is it?

@nooneinparticular Said
You're saying that if the Government exerts ANY control, it is automatically a left leaning policy?


No.


@nooneinparticular Said
Right wing economics is not just about a laissez faire marketplace. In fact, I'd argue that it's just a consequence of the Libertarian's dislike of regulation in general and not an end goal of Right wing economics. Right wing economics is concerned chiefly with the operation of business both small and large. This branch of economics is concerned chiefly with the maintaining of a competitive market, not a free one. Even at the, in their eyes, short term cost of poorer working conditions and lower wages. Contrast this with Left economic policy which places emphasis on worker well being and wages, even if it might not be the healthiest thing for the company at large.

These two schools of thought stem from two very different but fundamental beliefs about who drives the economy. The Right believes that it is ultimately the corporations that drive the economy, and as such give them as much support to do their business as they can. The Left believes it is consumers and workers that drive the economy, and consequentially they strive to support workers and consumers.


I agree that the right is not about an economic free for all. I have often said as much here. They claim they want no government interference but that is not true. They want it, just in ways that assist private capital.

However, that is still a long way from being authoritarian.

@nooneinparticular Said
Let me ask you something. Is corporate welfare a Left leaning or a Right leaning economic policy? Is the military-industrial complex a Left leaning or a Right leaning economic institution? Is providing support for small businesses so they don't get crushed under big business a Left or Right leaning policy? Is trust and monopoly busting a Left or Right leaning policy?


Honestly, it depends who is doing the paying of said welfare (and I oppose it for the most part unless it has benefits for workers attached like the Amazon deal AOC was so opposed to.

@nooneinparticular Said
What you believe about facts is irrelevant to whether or not they are facts. I believe you've said this yourself before.


Of course. But what are facts? That is the question. When it comes to politics, facts do not pertain to ideology so much as to events. People then interpret the event.

The reality is that no one acts in a perfectly, "ideal-typical" left or right way (if such a thing even exists). No government does, either.
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