The Forum Site - Join the conversation
Forums:
Politics

Two Million March In London For Another Vote

Reply to Topic
AuthorMessage
Pages: << · 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · >>
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#76New Post! Apr 15, 2019 @ 05:11:37
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Claiming that a politician lied, therefore the vote is invalid, is a bit like saying water fell from the sky when it rained so the vote should be invalid. It's an absurdity that not even Kafka would write about. The underlying premise is that in other elections the political class do not lie, and that people are so gullible and mentally impoverished they have no choice other than to believe what they're told because thinking is beyond them.


That's a rather funny statement coming from someone who espouses that a second referendum cannot happen because the political elite lied about what they could get out of negotiations with the EU. We cannot 'reward' politicians when they lie to the populace and 'willfully give us the poorest deal ever', but we can 'reward' politicians when they lie to the populace about the nature of leaving the EU in the first place?
bob_the_fisherman 14 minutes ago
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#77New Post! Apr 15, 2019 @ 06:51:47
@nooneinparticular Said

That's a rather funny statement coming from someone who espouses that a second referendum cannot happen because the political elite lied about what they could get out of negotiations with the EU. We cannot 'reward' politicians when they lie to the populace and 'willfully give us the poorest deal ever', but we can 'reward' politicians when they lie to the populace about the nature of leaving the EU in the first place?



No. What I said was the people were asked a question and they gave an answer the political class don't like and are working to undermine. My position is that you don't reward the undemocratic fervour of the political class because precedents set a precedent.
Jennifer1984 On about 7 hours ago
Remoaner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#78New Post! Apr 17, 2019 @ 17:50:56
Revealed: How Leave.EU faked migrant footage.

An investigation by Channel 4 News also reveals how Arron Banks’ pro-Brexit group appears to have staged photos of migrants attacking women in London

The pro-Brexit campaign group, Leave.EU, faked a viral video and appear to have staged photos of “migrants”, shortly before the EU referendum.

An investigation by Channel 4 News found that images purporting to show “migrants” attacking young women in London seem to have been staged.

The group – backed by businessman Arron Banks – was also behind a fake video, claiming to show how easy it is for migrants to sneak into Britain. In reality, satellite data shows the men on board had not left UK waters.

The photographs and video both involved a former SAS soldier, Jonathan Pollen, who works for Banks’ corporate intelligence agency.

Although the photos were never used, the fake video went viral, garnering hundreds of thousands of views on Facebook.

Responding to the investigation Arron Banks accused Channel 4 News journalists of creating “fake news” themselves.

But Labour MP Jo Stevens, who sits on the Culture, Media and Sports Committee described the video and images to Channel 4 News as “fake news”.

“The video of the boat is very obviously fake and put together in a fake way. The photographs are a little bit more difficult to spot that, but clearly fake news with a deliberate intention of stoking hatred and anti-immigrant feeling and rhetoric.”

She added: “We have local government elections, we have potentially European Parliament elections, we might have a General Election, and we might have a second referendum – and we still have no regulation around digital campaigning and the sort of disinformation and fake news, which will play a part in all of those elections, unless some regulation is put in place.”

‘Migrant’ images

Just days before the EU referendum in 2016, Leave.EU published an “undercover investigation” on Facebook, purporting to show how easy it is to smuggle migrants across the Channel.

But satellite data, seen by Channel 4 News, shows the footage was filmed in reverse. The shots of “migrants” entering the UK were actually filmed before the boat had even left British waters.

Just days earlier, Leave.EU was also behind a series of seemingly-staged photographs that show a woman being violently attacked by a man wearing a hooded jacket. Another photo appeared to show a woman being grabbed from behind as she walks into a shop.

One of the attackers seen in the photos is wearing a distinctive grey denim jacket, with black leather sleeves and a white hood. A strikingly similar outfit is worn by one of the “migrants” seen in the Channel crossing video.

Leaked emails, seen by Channel 4 News, show the pictures were emailed by Mr Pollen to Andy Wigmore, Leave.EU’s head of communications and Arron Banks’ right hand man.

Mr Wigmore then forwarded them on to Leave.EU press team, saying: “Migrants beating up girl in Tottenham [on] Saturday… Can we get this ready to go as a press release.”

Phil Campion, who fronted the Channel crossing video, firmly denied that he personally was involved in faking anything.

“I am not deceiving anybody. I didn’t cut the video. I didn’t cut the footage. I gave them the footage they asked me for, okay? I brought people back from France.”

Jonathan Pollen did not respond to our request to comment.

Channel 4 News Reveals Fake Video Of Migrants During Brexit Campaign

The bit about this that really makes me laugh is that somebody like Pollen, who is trying to pass himself off as being a member of the Special Forces Reserve hasn't got the nous to realise that his boat could be tracked by GPS.
bob_the_fisherman 14 minutes ago
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#79New Post! Apr 18, 2019 @ 09:16:43
@Jennifer1984 Said

Revealed: How Leave.EU faked migrant footage.


Forgive the sarcasm of this post, but do you feel the same way about years of the media covering up the child abuse in Rotherham, Rochdale, Telford, Newcastle etc., that led to the brutal abuse of literally thousands of little girls? People in the media knew for years that it was happening, but no one said anything.

Channel 4? Is that the BBC channel 4 that does hit pieces on people like Jordan Peterson then whines about "misogyny" and "bullying" when people respond to their gutter tactics?

You never respond to certain questions, but I am really interested in your answer to this one: Are you aware of the BBC series Panaroma and its attempts to smear Tommy Robinson as a sexual predator?

He secretly filmed them as they were working with a far left hate group (ironically called "Hope not Hate" ) on a documentary they were working on, that they called the "Tommy Takedown." Their plan was to lie about and smear him, but luckily for him one of the people being interviewed (a former employee of Tommy's with whom he had had a public falling out) had integrity and let him know.

She secretly recorded lying John Sweeney who not only said they were planning on doing something "sexual" regarding Tommy (meaning they were planning on lying about him abusing women), he also said in the 'interview' that he likes speaking Turkish to Greeks because it makes them angry. Apparently this despicable maggot thinks genocide is funny. He also mocked gay people.

The guy should have lost his job. But instead of that, Tommy got banned from all major social media platforms within days of his pre-emptive documentary "Panodrama" being shown live on a big screen in front of thousands of people outside the BBC, after a Muslim and BBC operative complained.

Were you aware of this?

If so, I'd like your thoughts on the supposedly unbiased BBC seeking to destroy a guy through knowingly lying about him (then trying to cover their a** by crying to social media to get Tommy kicked off their platforms to stop the information from spreading), when his main crime seems to be that he exposed child abuse. You could mention the BBC's previous experience of covering up child abuse in your answer if you want. But if you're not aware of it, that should tell you something about the UK media shouldn't it (assuming you still live in the UK)?
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#80New Post! Apr 24, 2019 @ 13:24:07
@bob_the_fisherman Said

No. What I said was the people were asked a question and they gave an answer the political class don't like and are working to undermine. My position is that you don't reward the undemocratic fervour of the political class because precedents set a precedent.


What you've stated is not functionally different from what I have. The only difference is an assigning of malicious intent without any evidence whatsoever. You're free to have that opinion if you wish, but that is just what it is, an opinion. Without evidence, it is no more valid then Jennifer's claims of South American pressure in Brexit negotiations.
bob_the_fisherman 14 minutes ago
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#81New Post! Apr 28, 2019 @ 09:31:40
@nooneinparticular Said

What you've stated is not functionally different from what I have. The only difference is an assigning of malicious intent without any evidence whatsoever. You're free to have that opinion if you wish, but that is just what it is, an opinion. Without evidence, it is no more valid then Jennifer's claims of South American pressure in Brexit negotiations.


Ok, so I will rephrase then.

You don't overthrow democracy just because a bunch of muppets that don't approve of the people's vote suddenly go from crafty enough to make it to positions of political power in a significant nation, to bungling incompetent morons that even retards call retarded, and who suddenly lose the ability to think logically, rationally or critically. It is possible that everyone involved n British politics suffered some form of acquired brain injury, I suppose.

If not, my theory stands quite well.
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#82New Post! May 01, 2019 @ 19:34:24
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Ok, so I will rephrase then.

You don't overthrow democracy just because a bunch of muppets that don't approve of the people's vote suddenly go from crafty enough to make it to positions of political power in a significant nation, to bungling incompetent morons that even retards call retarded, and who suddenly lose the ability to think logically, rationally or critically. It is possible that everyone involved n British politics suffered some form of acquired brain injury, I suppose.

If not, my theory stands quite well.


If you want to attribute people who think that Brexit, especially a hard Brexit, will be a difficult prospect and should be avoided if at all possible for other, not as destructive, ways to leave the EU, as 'incompetent morons that even retards call retarded' well then really you're no better than Jennifer who attributes Brexiters as largely racist xenophobes who don't know what they're doing.
bob_the_fisherman 14 minutes ago
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#83New Post! May 13, 2019 @ 22:01:10
@nooneinparticular Said

If you want to attribute people who think that Brexit, especially a hard Brexit, will be a difficult prospect and should be avoided if at all possible for other, not as destructive, ways to leave the EU, as 'incompetent morons that even retards call retarded' well then really you're no better than Jennifer who attributes Brexiters as largely racist xenophobes who don't know what they're doing.


Another pointless rebuttal. The people of the UK were asked a remarkably simple question: Do you want to leave or remain in the EU?

Despite all of the lies told by the political class and their allies in the media, the people said 'we want to leave.' It is then the job of the political class to make the best deal possible and leave as the people have requested, or, leave with no deal if that is the only option a childish, bullying democracy hating EU allows.

That's it. There is literally zero else to be said. If people disagree with this they are saying democracy is wrong. Now, that's ok. They're allowed to believe democracy is wrong. However, I won't let them get away with pretending they are the ones being democratic.
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#84New Post! May 19, 2019 @ 07:02:00
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Another pointless rebuttal. The people of the UK were asked a remarkably simple question: Do you want to leave or remain in the EU?

Despite all of the lies told by the political class and their allies in the media, the people said 'we want to leave.' It is then the job of the political class to make the best deal possible and leave as the people have requested, or, leave with no deal if that is the only option a childish, bullying democracy hating EU allows.


I find it highly amusing that, in this thread in which you have done nothing but call into question Jennifer's assertions, you none the less unequivocally assert with no evidence that if the UK can't get a deal with the EU then it's the fault of the 'childish, bullying, democracy hating EU and the UK's political class' that makes it that way.

'I assert, without evidence or logic, that both the EU and the UK have been intentionally sabotaging deal talks in order to force the public to re-vote to not leave the EU. I have absolutely no evidence to back up this claim, nevertheless I claim it as absolutely true and thus makes a second referendum undemocratic.'

The irony of calling someone else on a baseless assertion while relying on one yourself to prop up your entire argument is palpable. And highly hypocritical.

Quote:

That's it. There is literally zero else to be said. If people disagree with this they are saying democracy is wrong. Now, that's ok. They're allowed to believe democracy is wrong. However, I won't let them get away with pretending they are the ones being democratic.


A very convenient argument, isn't it? Only your version of Democracy that doesn't allow people to change their minds once started is true Democracy and all the rest are wrong. Anyone who says anything contrary to what you think is true is either part of the conspiracy or being duped by it. You have accused me of both on multiple occasions based on nothing more than the fact that some of my arguments are similar to others, as if everyone who has the same thought is either part of a hive mind or too simplistic to see through the deception.

You play this game constantly. I've been asking you for quite a long time now to provide any evidence that you have that would support the assertion that the UK and the EU are sabotaging talks, and every time you ignore me. As Shadowen said earlier, if you claim something as true and then fail to show evidence, then that claim becomes suspect.
bob_the_fisherman 14 minutes ago
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#85New Post! May 22, 2019 @ 01:50:42
@nooneinparticular Said

'I assert, without evidence or logic, that both the EU and the UK have been intentionally sabotaging deal talks in order to force the public to re-vote to not leave the EU.


This is boring and pointless. I have already agreed with you that it is possible that all of the people who were savvy enough to make it to positions of power in the UK and EU may have suddenly and inexplicably developed some kind of acquired brain injury that makes it impossible for them to do something as simple as make it possible for the UK to leave the EU as the people requested.

Perhaps there was some contagion in their drinking water and they have all got some brain consuming virus. This is possible and I have conceded that.

However, without evidence I remain unconvinced.

And as the EU has a long track record of ignoring democratic results it dislikes I happily stand by my entirely more reasonable assertion that this failure to carry out the democratic will of the British people is a result of nefarious intent.

Now, you are free to keep doing what you do and pointlessly say the same thing over and over, but I'm done.
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#87New Post! May 22, 2019 @ 07:50:43
@bob_the_fisherman Said

This is boring and pointless. I have already agreed with you that it is possible that all of the people who were savvy enough to make it to positions of power in the UK and EU may have suddenly and inexplicably developed some kind of acquired brain injury that makes it impossible for them to do something as simple as make it possible for the UK to leave the EU as the people requested.

Perhaps there was some contagion in their drinking water and they have all got some brain consuming virus. This is possible and I have conceded that.

However, without evidence I remain unconvinced.


Without evidence, I remain unconvinced that either of these scenarios are correct. You say they must either be corrupt or idiotic? So no other explanations exist? Given no evidence, we must either assume a corrrupt conspiracy or a brain eating parasite? Really? Is that how logic works now? We don't take into consideration more mundane and reasonable explanations first like perhaps the UK and EU are attempting to protect their interests in the face of a very disruptive split? No, that can't be it. Must be either a brain eating parasite or corruption so vast it would require several pages of assumptions just to make feasible.

You claim that you hold evidence in such high regard, but clearly the lack of it doesn't stop you from creating unsubstatiated scenarios from thin air that you then assert as truth. Your belief, however, doesn't make it true. Evidence and logic make it true.

Quote:

And as the EU has a long track record of ignoring democratic results it dislikes I happily stand by my entirely more reasonable assertion that this failure to carry out the democratic will of the British people is a result of nefarious intent.


An 'entirely more reasonable assertion' of which you have not provided a shred of evidence to support it. If you wish to believe in things without evidence, then that is your right, just as it is Jenniffer's. That being said, just because you are more stubborn than her does not lend your assertions any more weight. Repeating unsubstantiated things ad infinitium does not make them any more correct, regardless of how much you believe in them.

Your belief that Democracy is a one time vote system in which a vote on something can never be overturned until completed in it's entirety is just that, a belief. Without evidence that this is something the UK has to follow as part of it's rules, it is nothing more than a personal belief. I thought you didn't want the personal beliefs of outsiders to affect other countries? Or was that just people who aren't you and don't hold your beliefs?

Your belief that the UK and EU are either secretly conspiring or brain dead is just that, a belief. Without evidence to back such a statement up, it is nothing more than a personal belief, no matter how much you believe it.

Quote:

Now, you are free to keep doing what you do and pointlessly say the same thing over and over, but I'm done.


The only reason I have been repeating myself is because you have never addressed any of the points that I have been repeating. All you've consistently done is label them meaningless and ignored them to reiterate your own position, of which I am keenly aware having read them over numerous times already.

I know and understand what your positions are regarding Brexit at this point. We have been discussing them off and on for well over 2 years now. Reiterating them does not help. I take issue with those positions. Repeating them more emphatically does not address those issues, no matter how many times you do it, and neither does declaring them inconsequential with no stated reason.
bob_the_fisherman 14 minutes ago
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#88New Post! May 22, 2019 @ 10:34:57
@nooneinparticular Said

I know and understand what your positions are regarding Brexit at this point. We have been discussing them off and on for well over 2 years now. Reiterating them does not help.



Well at least you also see that this is a waste of time. Considering we can't see the actual bungling of Brexit as it happens in situ around a conference table during negotiations, we are forced to speculate on how people who are otherwise competent can't manage competence when dealing with an organisation that opposes democracy repeatedly.

I am happy for you to make up all kids of fantastical scenarios about unicorns and any other thing you want.

I'll let you have the final word and move on though. Cheers.
nooneinparticular On July 12, 2019




, Hawaii
#89New Post! May 22, 2019 @ 12:38:32
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Well at least you also see that this is a waste of time. Considering we can't see the actual bungling of Brexit as it happens in situ around a conference table during negotiations, we are forced to speculate on how people who are otherwise competent can't manage competence when dealing with an organisation that opposes democracy repeatedly.

I am happy for you to make up all kids of fantastical scenarios about unicorns and any other thing you want.

I'll let you have the final word and move on though. Cheers.


Of which you have no evidence for and are mearly speculating. I'm not the one baselessly accussing the negotiators of being morons here, you are. Like you said, we can't see into the conference room and can mearly guess at what's going on. You're the one guessing that they are, intentionally or not, bungling negotiations, based on nothing more then an unfounded assumption that they could be doing better, even though you have declined repeatedly to actually provide a better deal then what is already on offer.

Amazing how much free license you feel you have to criticize veteran negotiators without a shred of evidence when you:

A) Cannot produce a single idea that would yield a better deal, and

B) You unfoundedly assume, with no evidence or logic to back it up, that playing hardball from a position of weakness is a good negotiating tactic.

'A deal would be so easy' you said. 'I could do it in a week' you said. 'Well what would that deal look like?' I asked. What follows is nothing but silence, and yet still you have the gall to call into question their ability after demonstrating a complete lack of your own? If anyone's "mak(ing) up all kids of fantastical scenarios about unicorns and any other thing you want", it's certainly not me. You're the one here who apparently thinks they can out negotiate people who's job it is to negotiate.
bob_the_fisherman 14 minutes ago
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#90New Post! May 22, 2019 @ 21:57:59
@nooneinparticular Said

Of which you have no evidence for and are mearly speculating. I'm not the one baselessly accussing the negotiators of being morons here, you are. Like you said, we can't see into the conference room and can mearly guess at what's going on. You're the one guessing that they are, intentionally or not, bungling negotiations, based on nothing more then an unfounded assumption that they could be doing better, even though you have declined repeatedly to actually provide a better deal then what is already on offer.

Amazing how much free license you feel you have to criticize veteran negotiators without a shred of evidence when you:

A) Cannot produce a single idea that would yield a better deal, and

B) You unfoundedly assume, with no evidence or logic to back it up, that playing hardball from a position of weakness is a good negotiating tactic.

'A deal would be so easy' you said. 'I could do it in a week' you said. 'Well what would that deal look like?' I asked. What follows is nothing but silence, and yet still you have the gall to call into question their ability after demonstrating a complete lack of your own? If anyone's "mak(ing) up all kids of fantastical scenarios about unicorns and any other thing you want", it's certainly not me. You're the one here who apparently thinks they can out negotiate people who's job it is to negotiate.


No deal. Done.
Reply to Topic<< Previous Topic | Next Topic >>
Pages: << · 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · >>

1 browsing (0 members - 1 guest)

Quick Reply
Politics Forum - Some Rudeness Allowed

      
Subscribe to topic prefs

Similar Topics
    Forum Topic Last Post Replies Views
New posts   Politics
Fri Apr 15, 2011 @ 21:09
4 837
New posts   Random
Mon Aug 28, 2006 @ 22:01
4 219
New posts   Food & Drink
Sun Feb 10, 2019 @ 17:17
2 173
New posts   Pics & Videos
Fri Apr 16, 2010 @ 17:00
5 404
New posts   Politics
Tue Jun 06, 2006 @ 18:02
13 533