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bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#62New Post! Mar 03, 2019 @ 08:59:00
@nooneinparticular Said

If, say, London had voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU, would it be the job of the representatives of London to support Brexit,


No.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#63New Post! Mar 03, 2019 @ 16:32:14
A closer and more accurate assessment of how a party is supposed to represent its own people is the case of Scotland.

At the last Scottish independence referendum the Conservative government won a great deal of votes for maintaining the United Kingdom with the argument that strongly pro Europe Scotland would continue to be a part of the European Union. However, if they voted to become an independent nation they would not only be leaving the United Kingdom but also the EU and would have to apply to join from scratch, a process that could take several years with no guarantee of being accepted.

This argument was a major factor in the vote to reject independence.

At the EU referendum, Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain, and yet Scottish voices in Brexit negotiations have been completely ignored. The SNP have been sidelined and Scottish voices have been drowned out.

If the government of the United Kingdom is to represent the whole Union, then Scotland should have some representation in the negotiations. They have had none.

Northern Ireland voted to remain, but had it not been for the Conservative party needing DUP votes to maintain any sort of majority in Parliament, they too would have been sidelined.

Wales (narrowly voted to leave) has similarly been ignored, although they have no pressing issues unique to them. But they too have had no say in the process.

Brexit has been a completely English-driven process run entirely from Westminster for the benefit of English interests. I repeat (for emphasis), the only reason Northern Ireland has been considered at all is because the Conservative Party need DUP votes to keep any sort of majority in Parliament.

And this has been one of the central divisions of the whole process. 49% of those who voted wanted to remain and yet their voices have been totally ignored. A compromise of leaving the EU, but remaining in the customs union which would have meant retaining freedom of movement would have been a compromise most remainers would have accepted, but it was immediately ruled out by Madame Blunder's red lines.

That simple compromise would have obviated the Irish border question, would have facilitated ease of business between Britain and the EU and headed off just about every difficulty we are experiencing. There was enough moderate support for this on the Conservative back benches and there is little doubt that with any vote for this being whipped by both main parties, it would have passed.

We would not be where we are now.

But Madame Blunder was completely under the thrall of the ERG from day one to the degree that there is little doubt a hard Brexit was what she personally always wanted and was determined to achieve.

Nicola Sturgeon is not the fool that Alex Salmond was. She is biding her time and keeping her powder dry. And when the time.... and the numbers... are right, she will make a move for Scottish independence.

If the Northern Ireland issue is not resolved, then a border poll is inevitable sooner or later with the strong likelihood that NI will merge with the Republic.

The Break up of the United Kingdom is almost inevitable. And for what...? A corrupted version of "democracy", where three of the four constituent parts of a union have been ignored...?

1 out of 4 is not a majority for anything.

Politics is the art of achieving the possible and Britain's history of compromise and "Listen to, then find a way to accommodate, all points of view" has been completely discarded for a fundamentalist ideology endorsed almost entirely by England alone.

Is it any wonder the country is so bitterly divided..?
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#64New Post! Mar 03, 2019 @ 20:11:31
@Jennifer1984 Said

Is it any wonder the country is so bitterly divided..?


The bitter divide is not just in the UK, it has spread right across the west.

How could it not though?

The left is once again preaching of a privileged race that hold institutional power that it uses to oppress others, and, just like in Germany in the 1930s, is calling for social justice to be implemented to bring equality. How could we not be divided?

If you want to understand part of the divide look at your own words:

@Jennifer1984 Said

It isn't about the future... it isn't about democracy... it's about the Brexiters fundamentalist need to spite Europe. The hatred of the French and Germans is so deeply ingrained in the baby boomer generation - who overwhelmingly delivered the referendum result - that it's become a form of pathology.


The best we can say for this is that it's ridiculous. Your premise is that those who disagree with you are morally deficient. They are hateful. They want nothing more than vengeance and revenge because they are consumed with hatred and bigotry. They will destroy everything just out of spite. They don't care about you, or the future, or the country or the children. They will let them all die and suffer, won't they, Jen? That's what you are really saying, isn't it?

It is sitting right on the edge of absolute evil and is the kind of thinking that usually precipitates lots of unpleasantry like war, persecution etc. When you believe those who disagree with you are inferior and evil there is only one possible solution, because education won't work, will it?

I see the left spout insane and obviously false Nazi ideas but I don't think they're "literally Hitler." I think they're literally indoctrinated. The answer is to educate them. But your idea seems to be that those opposing you are actively and willingly evil so education is not the answer is it?

I don't think you'e evil. I just think you'e wrong.

Are you able to think of those who disagree with you as being people who acted because they were thinking for the future? Or can it only be that in your mind hate and spite are the only thing that possibly make someone disagree with you?
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#65New Post! Mar 03, 2019 @ 23:34:47
@bob_the_fisherman Said

The best we can say for this is that it's ridiculous. Your premise is that those who disagree with you are morally deficient. They are hateful. They want nothing more than vengeance and revenge because they are consumed with hatred and bigotry. They will destroy everything just out of spite. They don't care about you, or the future, or the country or the children. They will let them all die and suffer, won't they, Jen? That's what you are really saying, isn't it?

It is sitting right on the edge of absolute evil and is the kind of thinking that usually precipitates lots of unpleasantry like war, persecution etc. When you believe those who disagree with you are inferior and evil there is only one possible solution, because education won't work, will it?


Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't this been more or less your stance towards remain and May's efforts this whole time? Haven't you been calling for May's removal and replacement with 'genuine pro-brexit politicians and negotiators' because you disagree with them and how they've handled things so far? Wasn't it you who said that if Brexit negotiations were headed by another that 'genuinely believed in Brexit and the people' and came back with the same deal May did, you would have accepted that it was the best you could get?
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#66New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 00:01:08
@nooneinparticular Said

Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't this been more or less your stance towards remain and May's efforts this whole time?


No. Let me parse this a little.

At no point have I suggested that people who voted remain are filled with hate or spite, or, that they don't care about the future or democracy. I think this type of thing is a little flippant and is not the voice of reason, but of pique. The claim is absurd. If, however, the comment is not flippant but made with deliberate forethought then it suggests some serious problem in the utterer. To believe your political opposition are ruled by hate is not a good thing [1 - see footnote].

Don't get me wrong, I think people sprouting 'progressive' ideology (that will progress us all the way back to Germany in the early 1930s), are sprouting stuff that was evil then, and it's evil now for the same reason. However, I do not think the one speaking is evil. They might be, but more likely they're ill informed and probably have no idea how much like Hitler they sound when they say what he said.

Even with the Remoaners (those who want Brexit ignored), I do not even say they are ruled by hate and spite or that they don't care about the future. I think they want to ignore democracy because they lost. I think they have let their fascism out and I think they are acting like children who've had their lollies confiscated. But that's ok. We all have the capacity to act like fascists and we all use it at times. Others pointing that out is not unreasonable. It helps keep us all civil.

Now to the political class:
I have said May and far too many politicians do not care about the people, or democracy, as they have an agenda they're more focussed on. Are they evil? Possibly. It depends how you define it. I suspect they have a vision of a world they want, and they are trying to achieve it. And while that vision might be nice (a borderless utopia), it is unattainable while incompatible cultures seek to force their ideas on others.

One thing that makes me suspicious of the political class is that while they increase immigration from dangerous areas, knowing that it increases the risk to average people - especially women and children, they beef up their own security and live in places those immigrants won't be readily found.

1 + 1 always equals 2.

@nooneinparticular Said
Haven't you been calling for May's removal



Yes I have. Repeatedly. But again, not because she is evil, but because she is demonstrably not interested in doing what the people voted to have done, and she is an incompetent clown (a thing Jen agrees with).

@nooneinparticular Said
Wasn't it you who said that if Brexit negotiations were headed by another that 'genuinely believed in Brexit and the people' and came back with the same deal May did, you would have accepted that it was the best you could get?


Yes on the first bit, no to the second bit (that I have underlined).

What I said was May should step aside and let competent, pro-Brexit people negotiate. The closest I got to anything like you claim here is that I believe a no-deal Brexit should be an option and May should be spelling that out - I did not say people should accept the worst possible deal just because it's a deal, no matter who makes it.

I also said I could work a better deal in a week than May has managed in months, simply because I would say, "compromise or no deal will be done," and walk out of the room, straight into the media pack to make my position clear. That is what a pro Brexit negotiation looks like right now, not whatever absurdity May's engaging in.


Footnote:
[1] Everyone here knows my passionate loathing of a certain religion. Yet despite my freely admitted contempt for it I do not say everyone who follows this religion or disagrees with me is ruled by hate. That claim borders on psychotic. Plenty of Muslims do hate. Other Muslims believe the koran, which says hateful things, but do not hate. Many others barely know the koran, or read the hateful stuff as allegory, and so on.
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#67New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 02:00:37
@bob_the_fisherman Said

No. Let me parse this a little.

At no point have I suggested that people who voted remain are filled with hate or spite, or, that they don't care about the future or democracy. I think this type of thing is a little flippant and is not the voice of reason, but of pique. The claim is absurd. If, however, the comment is not flippant but made with deliberate forethought then it suggests some serious problem in the utterer. To believe your political opposition are ruled by hate is not a good thing [1 - see footnote].

Don't get me wrong, I think people sprouting 'progressive' ideology (that will progress us all the way back to Germany in the early 1930s), are sprouting stuff that was evil then, and it's evil now for the same reason. However, I do not think the one speaking is evil. They might be, but more likely they're ill informed and probably have no idea how much like Hitler they sound when they say what he said.


How can we endorse the intelligence of the voting population, and at the same time say that a significant portion of that voting population are "ill informed"?

If I remember correctly you were the one who said, repeatedly, that the people who voted for Brexit knew what they were voting for, and what the challenges would be. This assertion was not based on anything other then a belief in the intelligence of the population. You have said, repeatedly, that to call into question what people knew at the time of the vote was to question the intelligence of the voting population.

Either we believe in the intelligence of the voting population and whatever they vote for is the properly understood will of the people, or we believe that the voting population is too stupid to make any important decisions.

Quote:

I also said I could work a better deal in a week than May has managed in months, simply because I would say, "compromise or no deal will be done," and walk out of the room, straight into the media pack to make my position clear. That is what a pro Brexit negotiation looks like right now, not whatever absurdity May's engaging in.


Beware playing chicken for keeps. Attempting to bluff your way through a negotiation, and that is what you're doing here, is a very dangerous gamble. Besides, every indication is that the EU will call that bluff anyway since May's plan failed horribly in Parliament. I highly doubt anything else will come of negotiations between the EU and UK at this point.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#68New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 04:23:21
@nooneinparticular Said

How can we endorse the intelligence of the voting population, and at the same time say that a significant portion of that voting population are "ill informed"?


Try nuance. I don't mind the questioning at first, especially when it encourages me to clarify my ideas in my own head by thinking them through and articulating them. I actually think it is healthy and would be great for people to encounter more often - especially in this day where so many people get offended by almost every thing. Especially questions. BUT it has to be genuine questioning.

Just swinging back and forth between absolutes is not productive. It's like arguing for the sake of it, and that's not interesting or useful.

Do you think progressives who speak of social justice and privilege are ignorant of the fact Hitler did it, or, do you think they're evil?

One of those must be true for every individual SJW (not for them all as a group. People are individuals)... unless you can think of another option on why agreeing with Hitler's political ideas that gave us a World War and Holocaust is kind of ok. And maybe you can. Who knows? Maybe Hitler was right and you can explain why.

Anyway, I think most are ignorant. Most of them probably don't know they sprout the same crap Hitler did (especially when they accuse their opponents of being 'Nazis' or 'far right' as though Nazism is on the right, or they're not the ones just spewing Nazi slogans all over the place). If they do know, that takes a seriously man sized set of nads... and some hard core evil in the soul. Until proven otherwise I'll go with indoctrinated or ignorant rather than evil for the bulk of them.

Now, are all my opponents SJWs? No. Are all remainers SJWs? No. Are all SJWs remoaners - possibly, but probably not. Is an SJW ignorant in all things? Not necessarily. Some of them could be leaders in the field of economics. They might be post graduates in a range of scientific fields. They might be all kinds of things. But when it comes to politics, and they spout Nazi rhetoric, they're either ignorant or evil unless, as I say, you have an alternative option I'm yet to think of..

And I expressly say that not everyone that disagrees with me is a muppet. Some people that agree with me are not that bright. Many people that disagree with me are smarter than me in all kinds of ways.

@nooneinparticular Said
If I remember correctly you were the one who said, repeatedly, that the people who voted for Brexit knew what they were voting for, and what the challenges would be.


In this absolute sense you speak of? No. Why would I? That would be stupid. Some just want fishing rights, or they want to protect healthcare, or, they're angry that a child they know was attacked by a grooming gang of immigrants etc., etc., etc., or they don't like handing sovereignty to unelected bureaucrats who are not working in the interest of British people.

@nooneinparticular Said
This assertion was not based on anything other then a belief in the intelligence of the population.


No. It's based on you mischaracterising what I say.

@nooneinparticular Said
You have said, repeatedly, that to call into question what people knew at the time of the vote was to question the intelligence of the voting population.


I have literally (in the literal sense of the word), never said that.

I question the intelligence of the voting population all the time. The west would not be where it is now if people who cared and thought about stuff were the people who decided who ran the country. Democracy requires informed, engaged, interested and knowledgeable voters. They will all still disagree, and many of them would disagree with me, but they won't accept muppets running for office.

The last US election had not one candidate running that should be elected to run a chook raffle, let alone a nuclear power. It's not intelligent voters making informed decisions that led there.

What I said was, the establishment and the media ran a scare campaign against Brexit. Both sides opposed Brexit, however, many people voted for the reasons stipulated above (sovereignty, fishing etc). People don't get to say that Brexiters were deceived or ignorant when they voted, as though the other side didn't lie and deceive as well, or, like only Remainers were intelligent or morally good. They can say it, and some do, but they're wrong.

@nooneinparticular Said

Beware playing chicken for keeps. Attempting to bluff your way through a negotiation,


It would not be a bluff.


@nooneinparticular Said
and that is what you're doing here, is a very dangerous gamble. Besides, every indication is that the EU will call that bluff anyway since May's plan failed horribly in Parliament. I highly doubt anything else will come of negotiations between the EU and UK at this point.


Then, as I say, I would be going to the global press and making clear the resultant chaos on the continent lies 100% at the feet of their leaders who are not prepared to compromise. I would say it every time someone asked. I might even talk about things we had discussed and the how and why of them being rejected. I would more than happily bring this into the light for the public to behold, and would refuse to sign any confidentiality agreement regarding meetings unless certain pre-conditions were met. Play hard. Play fair, but play hard, and play in public.

But that's just me.

Of course the EU won't compromise unless forced. They will punish democracy time and again if the people get it wrong. We know that. They have form. They have done it several times now.

That is why the negotiation needs to be public. And it's why a no deal Brexit must be an option.
chaski On March 28, 2024
Stalker





Tree at Floydgirrl's Window,
#69New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 04:39:34
S H R I L L A R Y !!!!!!
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#70New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 06:11:02
@bob_the_fisherman Said

The bitter divide is not just in the UK, it has spread right across the west.

How could it not though?

The left is once again preaching of a privileged race that hold institutional power that it uses to oppress others, and, just like in Germany in the 1930s, is calling for social justice to be implemented to bring equality. How could we not be divided?

If you want to understand part of the divide look at your own words:



The best we can say for this is that it's ridiculous. Your premise is that those who disagree with you are morally deficient. They are hateful. They want nothing more than vengeance and revenge because they are consumed with hatred and bigotry. They will destroy everything just out of spite. They don't care about you, or the future, or the country or the children. They will let them all die and suffer, won't they, Jen? That's what you are really saying, isn't it?

It is sitting right on the edge of absolute evil and is the kind of thinking that usually precipitates lots of unpleasantry like war, persecution etc. When you believe those who disagree with you are inferior and evil there is only one possible solution, because education won't work, will it?

I see the left spout insane and obviously false Nazi ideas but I don't think they're "literally Hitler." I think they're literally indoctrinated. The answer is to educate them. But your idea seems to be that those opposing you are actively and willingly evil so education is not the answer is it?

I don't think you'e evil. I just think you'e wrong.

Are you able to think of those who disagree with you as being people who acted because they were thinking for the future? Or can it only be that in your mind hate and spite are the only thing that possibly make someone disagree with you?



Well, that's an interesting notion.... to declare somebody who doesn't agree with YOU as having some sort of pyschosis. I think you almost pity me.

But I could - if I were that sort of person - accuse you of the same thing.

You don't live here. You haven't been bombarded with this for nearly three years... every day.... every news item.... relentlessly.

And believe me, you haven't had the sort of rhetoric thrown at you either personally or as a person of a political persuasion. Believe me (and I accept that you probably won't) when you witness some of the things that have happened here.... hear the rhetoric being thrown out daily, and in the case of one of my online friends, has been assaulted in the street for simply wearing a tee shirt (the slogan said: "Don't blame me, I voted Remain". I have one of those myself). She was beaten and kicked by two men and called a "Collaborator".

I doubt very much that you'll condemn that. Got what she deserved, did she..?

I don't think you fully understand the depth of hatred some people have for Europe. As I pointed out in an earlier post, an MP, Jo Cox, was repeatedly stabbed and then shot at point blank range for voting Remain in the House of Commons.

Is that what you'd call normal behaviour, Bob..?

And how is what happened to Jo Cox a part of some psychosis of mine..?

And speaking of psychoses, how come this means so much to you..? You're not British. You're not resident here. It doesn't affect Australia in any way, shape or form.

I've got a reason for opposing Brexit. Mine,my daughter's and my families lives will be directly affected by it in a very serious and negative way.

Just exactly what problem do YOU have with the European Union that makes you so vehement and obsessive in your hatred of them..?

Being affronted by false allegations of being an anti-democratic organisation doesn't cut it. There are plenty of those in the world that you never mention, closer to your home (China for example) who you're not starting umpteen page threads about.

I would wonder what's going on in YOUR head to make you so obsessed with this.

There's something more than meets the eye about your obsession with Brexit and the intensity of your desire to see it fulfilled in the harshest possible way for this country.

So think on an old British adage. When you point one finger at me, there are three fingers pointing back at you.

Put your own mental house in order before you start accusing me of mental aberration.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#71New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 06:41:37
@nooneinparticular Said

How can we endorse the intelligence of the voting population, and at the same time say that a significant portion of that voting population are "ill informed"?

If I remember correctly you were the one who said, repeatedly, that the people who voted for Brexit knew what they were voting for, and what the challenges would be. This assertion was not based on anything other then a belief in the intelligence of the population. You have said, repeatedly, that to call into question what people knew at the time of the vote was to question the intelligence of the voting population.

Either we believe in the intelligence of the voting population and whatever they vote for is the properly understood will of the people, or we believe that the voting population is too stupid to make any important decisions.


Beware playing chicken for keeps. Attempting to bluff your way through a negotiation, and that is what you're doing here, is a very dangerous gamble. Besides, every indication is that the EU will call that bluff anyway since May's plan failed horribly in Parliament. I highly doubt anything else will come of negotiations between the EU and UK at this point.



Playing chicken for keeps is precisely what May has been doing all along. She's pinned everything on getting her "deal" through Parliament and it is patently failing and being seen to fail in a very public way.

As for Bob's assertion that May should just get out of the way and let more competent people take over..... there ARE NO "competent people."

This is something he just doesn't - or won't - understand. Nobody can come up with a better resolution because there is none to be had. And not only that, nobody would be willing to do it, even if there was time at this late stage... which there isn't.

This issue is completely polarised. There is no middle ground... a point I made earlier when I talked about compromise. Had there been a spirit of compromise then the EU would undoubtedly have agreed to it and we'd be going a lot more smoothly, but in her Mansion House speech of Autumn 2016 Theresa May laid down her infamous "Red Lines" and has stuck to them doggedly.

I liken Brexit to the tribal rivalry between groups of football supporters (and if you ever went to a football match between Glasgow Celtic and Rangers, you'd know what tribal hatred is).

When they go to the match, Fan A puts on his blue shirt to show what team he supports and fan B puts on his blue shirt. From that moment they are mortal enemies. They despise each other with a passion that goes way beyond reason. For both of them, their team would never commit a foul whereas the other team cannot possibly play the game fairly.

Democracy in this game means nothing. It is merely the football that is kicked between them. Each side claiming that they want it, but kicking the hell out of it in the struggle to win the game.

That is a very accurate analogy. Brexit really is THAT polarised.

I don't mind that people disagree with me on this issue, but I will fight my corner. I will argue my case.

Perhaps Bob is displaying the trait I describe in my analogy. He wants to see me (as a person and my point of view) beaten, defeated and humiliated which is one of the reasons he launched into his "mental illness" comments above. In his view, anybody who opposes Brexit and argues against it must be psychotic or mentally deranged in some way.

I applaud the way you have conducted your arguments. You're rational, intelligent and completely detached from the issue. I wish I could be so detached, but when you're in the middle of it all, standing back and being totally objective isn't the easiest thing in the world to do.

Thank you for your comments. Whether I agree with you or not, you've argued fairly and objectively. I respect that.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#72New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 06:59:59
Breaking news in today's Daily Telegraph.........

Cox Abandons Demand For Unilateral Exit Clause To Backstop

The Attorney General has finally conceded defeat to the EU over the British demand to have a unilateral exit clause to the Irish Backstop clause of the Withdrawal Agreement.

This will undoubtedly enrage the ERG and brings a No Deal exit much closer. It could very possibly precipitate a general election.

Sir Ivan Rogers said at the weekend (accurately in my opinion), the UK wanting to leave the Single Market and Customs Union, and end freedom of movement would have been a very problematic thing even in its own right. This is a far more dramatic severance of ties than anyone in Europe anticipated in late 2016.

Why do you think when the ERG are actively plotting to remove May in short order and pursue a 'hop skip and jump' approach to ultimately reneging on the Backstop after they have managed to secure a transition period, that the EU are playing hardball..?.

The EU have to be absolutist because the UK is untrustworthy at this present time. We have demonstrated this clearly throughout the debacle of the last two years. And the EU have to consider the very real possibility of the 'gaping hole' in the integrity of the single market being abused if Britain got it's way.

It is highly likely that we are going to bend over and take it from the Americans on hygiene standards for imported food means they cannot risk NI becoming an American backdoor into the single market.

Trump Tells May To Abandon EU Food Standards In Order To Get US Trade Deal
(see footnote below)

So why is this a surprise? Have I not been saying this very thing on this forum since, well, the Irish Border first became an issue?


Nobody anticipated this and sure as hell nobody voted for it.

We are at four minutes to midnight. And the clock is running.




Footnote: Heres an interesting gobbet from that report.......

"In the US, producers adhere to a "Defect Levels Handbook," which sets out the maximum number of foreign bodies like maggots, insect fragments and mould that can be in food products before they are put on the market.
For example, US producers are allowed to include up to 30 insect fragments in a 100-gram jar of peanut butter; as well as 11 rodent hairs in a 25-gram container of paprika; or 3 milligrams of mammalian excreta (typically rat or mouse excrement) per each pound of ginger. "


The EU has some of the most stringent food safety standards in the world. And the price of getting a trade deal with the US is to accept the above.

Personally, I'm not keen on putting that sort of food in front of my daughter.




Another Article on Hard Line US Position on UK Trade Deal
nooneinparticular On March 16, 2023




, Hawaii
#73New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 07:35:53
@bob_the_fisherman Said

Try nuance. I don't mind the questioning at first, especially when it encourages me to clarify my ideas in my own head by thinking them through and articulating them. I actually think it is healthy and would be great for people to encounter more often - especially in this day where so many people get offended by almost every thing. Especially questions. BUT it has to be genuine questioning.

Just swinging back and forth between absolutes is not productive. It's like arguing for the sake of it, and that's not interesting or useful.


An absolute is necessary, in this case, precisely because democracy requires the question be answered definitely. All of the philosophy of Democracy is based on this one pivotal assumption.

To argue otherwise is to claim that sometimes the people know what they're doing and other times they don't. That in itself begs the question of 'which is which?' When do they know what they're doing and when do they not? When can the electorate be held responsible for knowing and accepting what it's doing and when can it not?

Remember, this is all leading back to how you think a second referendum would be undemocratic because the electorate would be making the choice under duress. News Flash: the electorate is always under duress. That's the only way anything ever comes up to a vote in the first place. People don't vote to change things when everything is going great. The only time they ever vote to change things is when s*** hits the fan.

Quote:

Do you think progressives who speak of social justice and privilege are ignorant of the fact Hitler did it, or, do you think they're evil?


Neither. See Bob? I can do nuance.

I think we shouldn't be holding up Hitler's scarecrow ghost as a barometer on what we decide is 'good' and 'evil'. Mentioning that 'Hitler did it' is a pointless waste of time. If something is to be judged as 'good' or 'evil' it should stand or fall on it's own merits, not based on the sensibilities or lack-thereof of one man or group.

Quote:

One of those must be true for every individual SJW (not for them all as a group. People are individuals)... unless you can think of another option on why agreeing with Hitler's political ideas that gave us a World War and Holocaust is kind of ok. And maybe you can. Who knows? Maybe Hitler was right and you can explain why.


I find it funny that you accuse me of a lack of nuance and then go into how anything Hitler said or did is only ever 100% wrong.

Quote:

Anyway, I think most are ignorant. Most of them probably don't know they sprout the same crap Hitler did (especially when they accuse their opponents of being 'Nazis' or 'far right' as though Nazism is on the right, or they're not the ones just spewing Nazi slogans all over the place). If they do know, that takes a seriously man sized set of nads... and some hard core evil in the soul. Until proven otherwise I'll go with indoctrinated or ignorant rather than evil for the bulk of them.

Now, are all my opponents SJWs? No. Are all remainers SJWs? No. Are all SJWs remoaners - possibly, but probably not. Is an SJW ignorant in all things? Not necessarily. Some of them could be leaders in the field of economics. They might be post graduates in a range of scientific fields. They might be all kinds of things. But when it comes to politics, and they spout Nazi rhetoric, they're either ignorant or evil unless, as I say, you have an alternative option I'm yet to think of..

And I expressly say that not everyone that disagrees with me is a muppet. Some people that agree with me are not that bright. Many people that disagree with me are smarter than me in all kinds of ways.


So only most of your political opposites are morons and muppets who don't know what they're doing or saying. Well, isn't that a happy little accident for you then isn't it?

Quote:

In this absolute sense you speak of? No. Why would I? That would be stupid. Some just want fishing rights, or they want to protect healthcare, or, they're angry that a child they know was attacked by a grooming gang of immigrants etc., etc., etc., or they don't like handing sovereignty to unelected bureaucrats who are not working in the interest of British people.



No. It's based on you mischaracterising what I say.



I have literally (in the literal sense of the word), never said that.

I question the intelligence of the voting population all the time. The west would not be where it is now if people who cared and thought about stuff were the people who decided who ran the country. Democracy requires informed, engaged, interested and knowledgeable voters. They will all still disagree, and many of them would disagree with me, but they won't accept muppets running for office.

The last US election had not one candidate running that should be elected to run a chook raffle, let alone a nuclear power. It's not intelligent voters making informed decisions that led there.

What I said was, the establishment and the media ran a scare campaign against Brexit. Both sides opposed Brexit, however, many people voted for the reasons stipulated above (sovereignty, fishing etc). People don't get to say that Brexiters were deceived or ignorant when they voted, as though the other side didn't lie and deceive as well, or, like only Remainers were intelligent or morally good. They can say it, and some do, but they're wrong.


By the very same token, you can't then turn around and claim that because negotiations aren't proceeding by your standards and in the direction you want that the UK doesn't have the right to a second referendum. How is claiming that despite Brexiters being deceived or ignorant, their vote stands, but because a second referendum would include the deceived or ignorant, that vote wouldn't?

Quote:

It would not be a bluff.



Then, as I say, I would be going to the global press and making clear the resultant chaos on the continent lies 100% at the feet of their leaders who are not prepared to compromise. I would say it every time someone asked. I might even talk about things we had discussed and the how and why of them being rejected. I would more than happily bring this into the light for the public to behold, and would refuse to sign any confidentiality agreement regarding meetings unless certain pre-conditions were met. Play hard. Play fair, but play hard, and play in public.

But that's just me.

Of course the EU won't compromise unless forced. They will punish democracy time and again if the people get it wrong. We know that. They have form. They have done it several times now.

That is why the negotiation needs to be public. And it's why a no deal Brexit must be an option.


If you think a tantrum will work in your favor then go ahead. The fact of the matter is that the EU owes the UK nothing. The UK can pretend to point fingers like it's the EU's fault for not capitulating to their demands, but it was the UK that decided, on it's own, to leave. It's not the job of the EU to look after and follow through on the vote in the UK. That's the UK's job. It's the UK's job to figure out how they're going to leave. It's not the fault of the EU that Brexit is going poorly. The EU would have been perfectly within their right to say to the UK "You voted out and you get out. No deal. No trade. You want out? Then go." Quite frankly, the talks between the EU and UK have already provided more results then I would have ever expected, and that should say something considering how little actually happened.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#74New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 08:33:13
@Jennifer1984 Said

Well, that's an interesting notion.... to declare somebody who doesn't agree with YOU as having some sort of pyschosis. I think you almost pity me.


It's not that you disagree with me that's the issue. Chaski and I disagree on everything and he's fine - I actually enjoy our debates.

Tiger and I disagree on almost everything and she's fine.

Neither of them say that everyone who disagrees with them is hateful and trying to destroy all things out of spite though.

@Jennifer1984 Said
hear the rhetoric being thrown out daily, and in the case of one of my online friends, has been assaulted in the street for simply wearing a tee shirt (the slogan said: "Don't blame me, I voted Remain". I have one of those myself). She was beaten and kicked by two men and called a "Collaborator".

I doubt very much that you'll condemn that. Got what she deserved, did she..?




See, it's the hate that seems to be in you that intrigues me.

I oppose violence, just like I support Brexit.

When Trump supporters and free speech advocates get beaten, when retarded white kids are tortured and made to drink toilet water, when grooming gangs assault literally thousands of girls - I oppose it. When people attack a Muslim, despite my loathing of Islam, I oppose it. When some pasty white soy boy or beta cuck gets beaten for being pathetic and whiny, I oppose it (I might laugh about it, but I still oppose it).

Political violence is almost always wrong, and the one who initiates it is always wrong (self defence is legitimate though).

@Jennifer1984 Said
I don't think you fully understand the depth of hatred some people have for Europe. As I pointed out in an earlier post, an MP, Jo Cox, was repeatedly stabbed and then shot at point blank range for voting Remain in the House of Commons.

Is that what you'd call normal behaviour, Bob..?


This is irrational and emotive.

I'll let you answer this question. See if you can work out what I would think of a political opponent being stabbed and shot for no reason.

Tell me what you honestly think my opinion would be.

It will be interesting to see if you're capable of ascribing a good moral trait to someone who is diametrically opposed to you.

I like to think if a remoaner or Trump hater were to stab me you would be appalled and completely disavow it. I might be wrong, but I think and hope that I'm not.

@Jennifer1984 Said
And how is what happened to Jo Cox a part of some psychosis of mine..?


This is also irrational emotion in action.

I never claimed that some random muppet stabbing people you support is your fault. In fact, I said very recently the only person to blame for what you do is you (you meaning each of us individually. Our actions are our fault, no one elses) - I don't agree with Hitler's ideas on shared guilt. Again, the emotion driven lack of logic is fascinating. It says something. Do you hear it though?

If someone attacked you (Jen) on the street, and they were wearing a MBGA hat (Make Britain Great Again), and I supported them but not you, I would still step in to defend and protect you from them. Even if you were on the side line screaming that me and him are hateful, racist, homophobic, xenohobic bigots... I'd think you're unhinged and a muppet, but I'd still defend you (then, once I knew you were ok, I'd tell you I think you're a muppet and move on).

@Jennifer1984 Said
And speaking of psychoses, how come this means so much to you..? You're not British. You're not resident here. It doesn't affect Australia in any way, shape or form.


I care for a lot of reasons. I have children living in the UK (my own and those of friends), that I care about. I have family, friends etc., living there. A few of my best mates were born there (one of my oldest friends'
dad died as a fighter pilot in the Battle of Britain about which Winston gave his famous "never before" speech). Australia is linked to the UK, even if the UK isn't linked to us.

I have "skin in the game," as they say, it's just not my skin directly.

@Jennifer1984 Said
I've got a reason for opposing Brexit. Mine,my daughter's and my families lives will be directly affected by it in a very serious and negative way.


With the exception of the "me" part, I have those same reasons.

And beyond that I care for the same reason I care about Yazidi girls enslaved by ISIS, and I care about Bahai being persecuted, and I care about young black kids in the US addicted to crack and living s***ty lives with no future, and I care about homeless people and the mentally ill and so on. I care about people because they're people and should be cared about.

@Jennifer1984 Said
Just exactly what problem do YOU have with the European Union that makes you so vehement and obsessive in your hatred of them..?


I'm not sure I hate them. I want the EU gone. I want Merkel, May and Macron gone. I want this globalist ideology gone. I want the move toward Nazi and fascist ideology gone. I want the suppression of dissenters gone.

Some of us look at the way the world is going and think, "We've been here before." And we don't like where it ended up.

@Jennifer1984 Said
Being affronted by false allegations of being an anti-democratic organisation doesn't cut it.


Has the EU made nations vote again when they voted wrong the first time? Yes. Even the lying BBC fake news pedo protectors admit it. There's nothing false about saying true things.

@Jennifer1984 Said
There are plenty of those in the world that you never mention, closer to your home (China for example) who you're not starting umpteen page threads about.


On average, I start one thread about every three or four years at most, and I didn't start this one.

And I mention China from time to time - usually in relation to existing global power struggles and the failures of Obama. They are currently buying ports and land from nations they have loaned money to around here, and they also buy Australian politicians (according to our intelligence service, ASIO). Our political class are not helping our farmers during a decades long drought. When the farmers commit suicide (at a rate of more than one a week now), the Chinese buy the farms with the blessing of our political class.

No one here engages with that topic though. The suicides of Australian farmers is hard to connect with for outsiders.

@Jennifer1984 Said
I would wonder what's going on in YOUR head to make you so obsessed with this.

There's something more than meets the eye about your obsession with Brexit and the intensity of your desire to see it fulfilled in the harshest possible way for this country.


You do not idly throw away your sovereignty.

@Jennifer1984 Said
So think on an old British adage. When you point one finger at me, there are three fingers pointing back at you.


This attempt to accuse me is kind of sad. Can you point to even one instance where I claim people who disagree with me are all ruled by hate?

Again, I will say this to really drive home the point.

I hate Islam. I assume you'd be aware of that..? But if not, I think it's the most evil thing man has ever created and a world without it becomes instantly a better world and loses literally nothing of value. Islam has no value. At its best it is a disease.

However, I do not hate someone for being Muslim. If they want sharia, I want them gone from the west, but that's not because I hate them, it's because I think little girls are not wife material, it is not ok to r4pe non Muslim women, or kill homosexuals, apostates, adulterers or people who mock your religion etc. Sharia allows all of this and more.

Yet I still do not hate Muslims.

Your comment about Brexiters was worse than my comments about Muslims... let that sink in.

@Jennifer1984 Said
Put your own mental house in order before you start accusing me of mental aberration.


Meh. Like you and everyone else I'm not perfect. But as someone who has spent years working with screwed up kids of all races and religions and ethnic identities, and who spent time being a homeless druggy bum after suffering at the hands of some seriously bad people, I think I'm doing ok.

I disagree with you. That doesn't make me hateful or bigoted or insane. I think you are wrong. I do not think you are evil.
bob_the_fisherman On January 30, 2023
Anatidaephobic





, Angola
#75New Post! Mar 04, 2019 @ 08:47:49
@nooneinparticular Said

I think we shouldn't be holding up Hitler's scarecrow ghost as a barometer on what we decide is 'good' and 'evil'. Mentioning that 'Hitler did it' is a pointless waste of time. If something is to be judged as 'good' or 'evil' it should stand or fall on it's own merits, not based on the sensibilities or lack-thereof of one man or group.


So you think holding all members of a race guilty is ok. I won't argue against that. I don't think I need to.
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