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What is 'Toxic Masculinity' Really?

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Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#16New Post! Jan 30, 2019 @ 16:08:13
@Jennifer1984 Said

re: my BIB

I agree. To an extent.

Vive la difference is perfectly acceptable provided those differences don't morph into discrimination, oppression and abuse then we can all live together, content in our own skins and enjoying the benefits that both bring to our lives. But it has to be said that men are often highly selective in how women - and our capabilities - are viewed by them.

For example: It is true that females are biologically less physically powerful than men. That's a given. But that power has been abused for centuries to oppress women. Men have celebrated their position of power and are loathe to give it up.

Women were denied the vote in Britain throughout the 19th century largely on the grounds that they were "weaker" than men and unable to carry out the hard physical labour that men do. That argument, so it went, meant that as women were inferior to men they shouldn't have the same voting rights.

And then along came World War I. The men marched off to the trenches and women in their hundreds of thousands poured into the munitions factories to do the.... er.... hard physical labour that they'd been told for generations was beyond their fragile capabilities.

This is toxic masculinity writ large. Tell women that they are inferior and then when it suits, make them do the things you've hitherto said was beyond them.

TM is a mindset. It's an attitude. It is the belief that women are inferior and are therefore subject to male rule in whatever form suits the male purpose at any given time.

It doesn't apply only to the workplace or in civil rights. In the home... especially in the bedroom, where a wife may be expected to submit to being treated as a whore.... on the sports field, in government.... at every level of society, TM demands that the woman be considered inferior for no other reason than her gender.

Toxic Masculinity, by virtue of it's very name, is a male attitude. Women aren't responsible for it. We just suffer from it. But just because it exists doesn't mean we have to submit to it. And increasingly, we don't.

This is resented by men. Women who stand up for themselves are labelled "Feminazis".... "b****es"..... they're even labelled as lesbians when they're not. The word is used as a pejorative for a woman who demands to be treated like a human being.... which also brings homophobia into the TM landscape, (although I accept that some women can use that kind of damning slur against other women in that regard too).

Yes, we can celebrate those differences that exist between us where they lead to a harmonious and mutually beneficial relationship. But we shouldn't be oppressed by them.


I don’t disagree with any of this, and I don’t think anything I said in my earlier post would contradict any of this.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#17New Post! Jan 30, 2019 @ 19:53:55
@Eaglebauer Said

First, just to get this out of the way, I'm not paring down your post to be a jerk...just cutting some of it out to address the points I mean to address...



I actually agree completely with this statement...THIS is toxic masculinity. It's not "male thought," it's not every time a man disagrees with a woman, it's not men trying to get a promotion at work, it's not men wanting to provide for a family...

It IS men being chauvinistic and taking an attitude toward women that is unhealthy and not supported in any fact. And it's wrong...unfair..indefensible. But I would add the caveat that it's also not nearly as ubiquitous as it once was and that men by and large these days are (correctly) adopting a more egalitarian view along gender lines. Sure, we still have a lot of work to do as men, but I do think we are moving in the right direction and I think that men of my generation and the ones that follow are much more respectful of women as human beings than the generations that we came from.



That last sentence is key: Increasingly, women don't put up with it and increasingly, the situations where they are expected to are dwindling. Thankfully. It's the good fight that most women (not feminazis...but women who believe in the spirit of old school feminism...equality not inequality on both sides) are fighting....and that men should be fighting along side them.

That is my solid stance on the gender issue: that it should not be men against women or women against men...it ought to be men and women working in concert toward a goal of equality.


I'll add another caveat that it's not resented by "Men" with a capital "M." It's resented by chauvinists, who are becoming fewer in number and being outed for the bigotry they promote. And those men who go full ignorance and automatically label women who mention a word about equality as "feminazis" do not represent me as a man and honestly, I don't think ought to represent manhood in general.

Real men care about women as people and respect them. And more and more in modern times, we are overtaking chauvinists both in number and in voice. We fight bigotry on both sides.

Thanks for posting.



You're welcome. I quite agree with your assessment. Thanks for seeing it in the right light.

No, I don't think it is all men who behave in this way, and yes, the numbers who do are dwindling generation by generation.

I don't think any woman avidly seeks confrontation on gender issues for the sake of it. Conflict is forced upon us. Perhaps Shakespeare summed up being forced into unwilling conflict very well:

"We would not seek a battle as we are, but as we are, I say we will not shun it."

Won't it be a great day when all the refuges and shelters close for good..? Won't it be a great day when Mrs Smith doesn't get a black eye from "walking into a door"... every Saturday night... Won't it be a great day when candidates for jobs are chosen on purely merit, not on gender..? And their labour is considered to have equal value.

It's a cause worth campaigning for and we DO appreciate the support of those men who stand up and be counted among us.

When celebrities like Benedict Cumberbatch wore the tee shirt it sent out a strong message that was picked up on by many. For a time a lot of men wore these shirts and they had an effect.




Unfortunately, as the momentum started to build, extremist right wing newspapers here, particularly the Daily Mail, set out to denigrate the campaign by presenting a false headline that these shirts were being made in sweat shops by impoverished workers, which did a lot to kill the campaign:




The focus was placed upon (falsely alleged) exploitation of migrant workers.... as if the fanatically Brexit supporting Daily Mail ever gave a s*** about migrants...!!

Complaints to the Press Commission forced them to retract the story... which they did at the bottom of page 25 in very small point, beneath the sodoku puzzles some weeks later.

Needless to say, sales of the shirts slumped and politicians like Ed Milliband and Harriet Harman stopped wearing them.

This is the kind of opposition feminism faces.

Overcoming sexism is an uphill battle that we'd rather not have to fight. But we will.

Oh and by the way.... those tee shirts never did cost £45. Amanda and I bought ours for a fiver..!!
mrmhead On about 23 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#18New Post! Jan 30, 2019 @ 21:37:55
My take on it is another label to throw around and divide people.

It starts as accusatory and derogatory, then a diagnosed condition, then us "TM'ers" can claim disability, equal rights, and protection laws!

- She can't fire me because I have TM!!
mrmhead On about 23 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#19New Post! Jan 30, 2019 @ 21:40:57
As the label gets formalized, funding can be had to study and treat it, and a Big Pharma can prescribe a regimen to cure it!
mrmhead On about 23 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#20New Post! Jan 30, 2019 @ 21:42:28
Who knows, maybe they already have a few remedies on the shelf looking for a condition to cure!
mrmhead On about 23 hours ago




NE, Ohio
#21New Post! Jan 31, 2019 @ 00:00:24
Is this the result of "Toxic Transphobia"?

Last Tuesday, the Supreme Court cleared the way for a Trump administration policy that bans most transgender individuals from serving in the military to go into effect while appeals play out in the lower courts.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#22New Post! Jan 31, 2019 @ 04:54:05
@mrmhead Said

Is this the result of "Toxic Transphobia"?

Last Tuesday, the Supreme Court cleared the way for a Trump administration policy that bans most transgender individuals from serving in the military to go into effect while appeals play out in the lower courts.



Tell me about it.

It took a seven year campaign by four former service people to get the blanket ban on LGBT's serving in the British armed forces overturned.

The "Rank Outsiders" as they became known were thwarted at every step of the process, all the way up to the Supreme Court (the highest in the land). They eventually took their case to the European Court of Human Rights.... and won.

It caused outrage among the Gammons (you should have read what the Daily Mail had to say about it..!!) but the decision was legally enforceable on the British Government and they had to concede to it.

Even then, a way was found to put a negative spin on it by the Brexiters... During the Referendum campaign they spun the decision as having come from the European Union. It didn't, it came from the ECHR, which has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. Two completely separate entities.

It was a completely false allegation. Untrue. A big, fat stripey lie. But they audience they were playing to accepted that it was all the EU's fault that there were now "queers" serving in their treasured military, and if they got their way our soldiers would be soon going into battle dressed in pink..... and so it went on.

Moving along............

I must say I disagree with your - what seems to be an - assertion that the concept of TM is all some sort of politically correct plot to falsely label men.

To me, it's become a buzz phrase that has come into the common parlance more as a matter of convenience. A two-word catch-all for the lazy who don't look into the detail but rather, see everything at a superficial level.

Not only is it lazy, but it gives those men who despise feminists the opportunity to claim victimhood when it is they who are the oppressors...!!!

They're able to say that feminism is an aggressive case of "PC Gone Mad" and therefore denigrate equal rights campaigns and cast women as the villains. The net result of this is that we just go round and round and round without ever achieving anything meaningful...... which is precisely what such men want.

The problems women have to face go deeper than any simple phrase can cover and the issue of gender discrimination has to be taken much more seriously than that.
Cpat92 On May 16, 2021
It's all or nothing





Lauderhill, Florida
#23New Post! Jan 31, 2019 @ 15:05:18
Never heard of Toxic Transphobia. If that is another issue shot into existence, then in honesty, I will side with the President on this one. Even Mad Dog Mattis (before he resigned) supported this idea and decision.

Going back to the main topic: I am in agreement with the Psychologist from the APA. There are those who are also against it, not because it makes men look bad in general (which it does to an extent), but because those who support this puts a political ideology over science. This is one reason professionals are in disagreement with Toxic Masculinity. I do believe that they need to remove and readjust this as these "negative traits" don't only fit the bad men we have in the world, but also bad women. We have bad people, point blank. It has nothing to do with masculinity, nor femininity. It's an overall toxic mindset. I think it's possible that some individuals who helped bring toxic masculinity to light may have such a mindset, regardless, or not they say this is to better the world.
Cpat92 On May 16, 2021
It's all or nothing





Lauderhill, Florida
#24New Post! Jan 31, 2019 @ 15:08:07
On twitter (yes, I said twitter), Dr. Bart Andrews posted this in response to some of those Doctors in support of toxic masculinity.

Quote:
This statement is not as bad as the @APA endorsing torture of prisoners post 911 but it’s putting political ideology before science, which is unacceptable. They should know better. I’ll have more to say about this later.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#25New Post! Feb 01, 2019 @ 11:48:59
@Cpat92 Said

...it’s putting political ideology before science, which is unacceptable


The APA have a lot of form in this area.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#26New Post! Feb 01, 2019 @ 11:53:51
@Cpat92 Said

...I do believe that they need to remove and readjust this as these "negative traits" don't only fit the bad men we have in the world, but also bad women. We have bad people, point blank. It has nothing to do with masculinity, nor femininity. It's an overall toxic mindset.

Absolutely.

Men don't need to change how they treat women, though some individuals do. Women don't need to change how they treat men, though again some individuals do.
psycoskunk On December 24, 2020
Funky-Footed Skunk





A fort made of stinky socks, C
#27New Post! Feb 01, 2019 @ 22:37:48
2 years ago I was standing at the bus stop waiting to go to a shift at the aquarium. Two young girls (younger than me) came running up from around the corner, laughing and out of breath. The taller one of the two asked me if I knew if the Metrotown bus boarded here...

Important Side Note: The bus that goes to the Aquarium and the bus that go to Metrotown are the same bus (19), just in opposite directions. They were on the wrong side just as a bus was pulling in.

...I said "It does, but it's on the other side." I think she took it as me saying "the other side of this block," so when she said "Thanks" and went to go run past me, I stopped her and pointed across the street saying "No, wait! I meant it boards across the street. Sorry about that."

Out of nowhere, her friend pushes me fairly hard and yells "Did you really just f***ing mansplain where the bus is?! The hell is wrong with you?" Both me and the taller girl give her a confused look while she looks really pissed off for some reason. I replied "The hell are you talking about? I was just telling her the bus stop was across the street. It was a simple mix-up. Calm down." The angry girl is about to go off again, but her friend steps in and tells her to calm down as well. Just as the bus starts to pull away, the two of them start arguing and I mentioned about the bus, but I don't think they heard me.

Thankfully they were too wrapped up in their fight to notice my bus arrived, so I just hopped on and rode to work. Also got to be serenaded by a drunk guy who got on the wrong bus. Good times.
Cpat92 On May 16, 2021
It's all or nothing





Lauderhill, Florida
#28New Post! Feb 04, 2019 @ 04:02:35
@psycoskunk Said

2 years ago I was standing at the bus stop waiting to go to a shift at the aquarium. Two young girls (younger than me) came running up from around the corner, laughing and out of breath. The taller one of the two asked me if I knew if the Metrotown bus boarded here...

Important Side Note: The bus that goes to the Aquarium and the bus that go to Metrotown are the same bus (19), just in opposite directions. They were on the wrong side just as a bus was pulling in.

...I said "It does, but it's on the other side." I think she took it as me saying "the other side of this block," so when she said "Thanks" and went to go run past me, I stopped her and pointed across the street saying "No, wait! I meant it boards across the street. Sorry about that."

Out of nowhere, her friend pushes me fairly hard and yells "Did you really just f***ing mansplain where the bus is?! The hell is wrong with you?" Both me and the taller girl give her a confused look while she looks really pissed off for some reason. I replied "The hell are you talking about? I was just telling her the bus stop was across the street. It was a simple mix-up. Calm down." The angry girl is about to go off again, but her friend steps in and tells her to calm down as well. Just as the bus starts to pull away, the two of them start arguing and I mentioned about the bus, but I don't think they heard me.

Thankfully they were too wrapped up in their fight to notice my bus arrived, so I just hopped on and rode to work. Also got to be serenaded by a drunk guy who got on the wrong bus. Good times.



So she seriously accused you of "mansplaining" where the bus was?
psycoskunk On December 24, 2020
Funky-Footed Skunk





A fort made of stinky socks, C
#29New Post! Feb 05, 2019 @ 01:45:39
@Cpat92 Said

So she seriously accused you of "mansplaining" where the bus was?


Sure seemed like it. It happened a while ago, though.
shadowen On March 22, 2024




Bunyip Bend, Australia
#30New Post! Feb 05, 2019 @ 03:48:15
@psycoskunk Said

2 years ago I was standing at the bus stop waiting to go to a shift at the aquarium. Two young girls (younger than me) came running up from around the corner, laughing and out of breath. The taller one of the two asked me if I knew if the Metrotown bus boarded here...

Important Side Note: The bus that goes to the Aquarium and the bus that go to Metrotown are the same bus (19), just in opposite directions. They were on the wrong side just as a bus was pulling in.

...I said "It does, but it's on the other side." I think she took it as me saying "the other side of this block," so when she said "Thanks" and went to go run past me, I stopped her and pointed across the street saying "No, wait! I meant it boards across the street. Sorry about that."

Out of nowhere, her friend pushes me fairly hard and yells "Did you really just f***ing mansplain where the bus is?! The hell is wrong with you?" Both me and the taller girl give her a confused look while she looks really pissed off for some reason. I replied "The hell are you talking about? I was just telling her the bus stop was across the street. It was a simple mix-up. Calm down." The angry girl is about to go off again, but her friend steps in and tells her to calm down as well. Just as the bus starts to pull away, the two of them start arguing and I mentioned about the bus, but I don't think they heard me.

Thankfully they were too wrapped up in their fight to notice my bus arrived, so I just hopped on and rode to work. Also got to be serenaded by a drunk guy who got on the wrong bus. Good times.


I had something not too dissimilar happen to me last year. I was also accused of 'manspreading' on the train by three sheilas who were taking up six seats. I didnt know what the bloody hell 'manspreading' was at the time. Pardon me for trying to sit comfortably and not squash my wedding tackle by sitting like a girl.

I also had a mate who held open a door for a bloke and sheila who were right behind him. The bloke said "thank you" and continued on his way whilst the sheila went completely ape droppings screaming (yes screaming) at my mate, accusing him of being an arrogant, misogynist c^nt (yes she freely used that word). Even as he walked away she wouldn't let it go and kept getting in his face. She even shoved him a few times.
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