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On about 7 hours ago Erimitus


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chaski

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New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 05:11:40 am
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@Leon Said

“because I knew that it would throw off my opponents”

This is the cause of your decision to hone your left footed skills.


And that "cause" was my own.

So the three "causes" we have so far are my belief, my choice and my actions in support of my belief and my choice.

So far the causes are in fact my own.

Of course, I could have chosen to not learn how to play soccer ambidextrously. The cause of that would also have been my choice.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 05:16:39 am
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@chaski Said

And that "cause" was my own.

So the three "causes" we have so far are my belief, my choice and my actions in support of my belief and my choice.

So far the causes are in fact my own.


That might be where we differ. I don’t necessarily adhere to the idea that formulated belief is absent of outside cause.

Education, experience, and genetic ability to process information are three facets of its formation that come from outside forces of oneself.


chaski

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New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 05:31:16 am
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@Leon Said

Education, experience, and genetic ability to process information are three facets of its formation that come from outside forces of oneself.



We are all clearly impacted by "forces" that are outside of us... we see, hear, smell, taste and touch.

That does not mean that our decision to watch a movie, listen to music, smell a particular flower, eat certain foods, or run our hands across the bark of a tree is not our choice but rather is somehow a cause that isn't our own.

I detest the taste (flavor) of coconut. Is the "cause" of that somehow divorced from my own taste buds?


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 05:50:12 am
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@chaski Said

We are all clearly impacted by "forces" that are outside of us... we see, hear, smell, taste and touch.

That does not mean that our decision to watch a movie, listen to music, smell a particular flower, eat certain foods, or run our hands across the bark of a tree is not our choice but rather is somehow a cause that isn't our own.

I detest the taste (flavor) of coconut. Is the "cause" of that somehow divorced from my own taste buds?


Your detestation of coconut is either biological (genetic) or being victim of an experience that created an adversity that otherwise wouldn’t have been there (given that it isn’t a normal detestation to the human taste, as is, say feces). Both these causes are obviously not by your choice.

Choice of foods to enjoy are based on many other factors too, such as upbringing, culture, frequency, schedule, chance, budget, time, etc, etc, etc. All outside influences.

Movie, music choices are HUGELY influenced by others. And by chance. And genetics. All outside of choice.

Sensory needs are biological. Available stimuli is dependent on chance, proximity, schedule, experience. Again, all outside of our doing.

And so on.


chaski

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New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 05:58:11 am
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@Leon Said

Your detestation of coconut is either biological (genetic...


Possibly genetic, but clearly not a force outside of myself... my tastebuds are part of me.

@Leon Said


Choice of foods to enjoy are based on many other factors too, such as upbringing, culture, frequency, schedule, chance, budget, time, etc, etc, etc. All outside influences.


Choice being the operative word. Sure there are outside influences, but the choice remain your own.

@Leon Said


Movie, music choices are HUGELY influenced by others. And by chance. And genetics. All outside of choice.


Choice being the operative word. Sure there are outside influences, but the choice remain your own.

@Leon Said


Sensory needs are biological.


I wasn't talking about "sensory needs" but rather sensory choices.

Choice being the operative word. Sure there are outside influences, but the choice remain your own.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 06:21:19 am
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I think the best way to explain where I am coming from is to give a bit more of a detailed example. And so I’ll use your soccer example since that is what you are using to try and argue your point.

So you say that the decision to hone your left footed skills are wholly by your own free will.

But then you say that this decision was out of belief that it would give you an advantage over your opponent, giving it a cause. Which you insist is still out of your free will.

But how was this belief formulated? Were you finding that what you did with your right foot wasn’t creating the success you wanted to have? Hence the need to figure something out new? And, in figuring that out, why was honing your left foot on top of the list or on the radar? How did it get there? Did you previously end up having to use your left foot on one occasion and saw success or potential, banking it for future ponderance? Or did you see someone else’s success in it and this influenced you to do the same? Or someone more experienced than you and that you looked up to advise you on this? Or perhaps you bruised or sprained your right foot and you were forced to rely on your left foot for a quarter, opening up the thought in your mind for future exploration? Or was it likely some combination of the above?

None of these may specifically apply to you, but that isn’t my point. My point is that there are factors that brought it to your thought process, whatever they may be in your case - none of which come directly from your own decision. And let us not forget the outside causes that got you playing soccer in the first place, over other activites, or the genetics that relegate you to playing a certain way and the level of success you play. And the hundreds and thousands of varied, brief interactions with the ball and other players that build up your experience and thought processes in skill decisions. As well as from watching others.

Environmental factors and genetics likely brought you to the exact moment in time where you made the decision as well as the decision you made. Perhaps there was a glimmer of free will somewhere deep in the complex and catalytic quation, but it certainly is less evident than we like to make it out to be in the illusion of choice.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 06:23:23 am
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@chaski Said

Possibly genetic, but clearly not a force outside of myself... my tastebuds are part of me.



Choice being the operative word. Sure there are outside influences, but the choice remain your own.



Choice being the operative word. Sure there are outside influences, but the choice remain your own.



I wasn't talking about "sensory needs" but rather sensory choices.

Choice being the operative word. Sure there are outside influences, but the choice remain your own.


Genetics are certainly part of you, but genetics is NOT free will. Unless you believe that somehow you get to decide what your genes are before you are even born.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 01:46:22 pm
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@Leon Said

Genetics are certainly part of you, but genetics is NOT free will. Unless you believe that somehow you get to decide what your genes are before you are even born.



Of course genetics are not free will.

Genetics are also do not block free will, at least not completely. I could have the genetic based aptitude to be a pro football player, but choose to not ever play pro football. Choice.

I know a guy like that. Played NCAA football on a team that went to and won a bowl game. He was definitely in the running to be on a professional football team. He chose to not do it... not even tryout to do it. He chose to do other things with his life.


Erimitus

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 02:09:37 pm
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@Leon Said

True story:

I was in a philosophy class taught by a professor who was an ardent anti-determinist. One day he had a student hold out a small object in his hands in front of him, from which the professor stood in front of him and grabbed the object with one hand, trying his best to make it look as arbitrary and random as he could as to which hand he used to grab it, stating, “There is NOTHING that determined which hand I used.”

To which I calmly asked if he was indeed right handed.

Laughter erupted in the classroom, he sat down red faced, and never brought up the subject again.


chuckle


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 03:21:26 pm
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@chaski Said

Of course genetics are not free will.

Genetics are also do not block free will, at least not completely. I could have the genetic based aptitude to be a pro football player, but choose to not ever play pro football. Choice.

I know a guy like that. Played NCAA football on a team that went to and won a bowl game. He was definitely in the running to be on a professional football team. He chose to not do it... not even tryout to do it. He chose to do other things with his life.


What were the other things he chose to do in life? And what were the reasons he gave for choosing those things over football? Certainly, it wasn’t all just a random flip of the coin. Everything has a cause.

Heck, even if it were a flip of the coin, this would be an even more blatant example of a result dictated by causation. The position of the coin before the flip, the force and range of motion of of the muscles used to flip the coin, the trajectory and distance of the coin’s path, the makeup, temperature, humidity, and motion of the air through which it travels, the composition and pliability of the surface of its landing, the weight, size, and imperfections of the coin itself, and the dynamics of all of these with each bounce all interact in catalytic fashion to dictate exactly how the coin will end up heads or tails. One could argue that within all of these physics, there was an element of randomness. I would argue there is not.

The same exact approach can be applied to anything, including this fellow’s decision not to pursue pro football. Every person who has the same exact DNA makeup and organization, experience in every second of his life, geographical setting, parents, upbringing, coaches, roommates, education, love life, health, fitness, mood, weather, digestion, and position of neurons in the brain at the moment, would make the same exact choice. One would argue within all of these factors that would bring each mirrored person to the same exact moment the decision is made, there is an element of randomness, of “choice”. I would argue there is not.

I do get that many of these factors are invisible, giving the illusion that we are making a choice.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 03:48:20 pm
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@Leon Said

Certainly, it wasn’t all just a random flip of the coin.


That is exactly the point. It wasn't a random flip of the coin, and it was not predetermination.

He used his brains and pondered the issue... his likes vs dislikes, his goals in life vs things that were not his goals.

....and then he made a choice.

@Leon Said

Everything has a cause.


I totally agree with this statement. Everything has a cause... or more specifically more than one cause.

And one of those causes, in relation to humans (and probably all animals) is the process of thinking and choosing.

Choices are based on input that is external to us and decision making that is internal to us.

We are absolutely influenced by the world around us and our lives....

We are influenced by the choices we make. Generally speaking the choices that work out are reinforced by success and the choices the do not work out are typically not reinforce by the failure. Regardless they are our choices that lead to more of our choices that lead to more of our choices.

Making choices based on external stimuli does not equal predetermination. It mean that you are a thinking being who is making choices in your life.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 03:56:15 pm
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@chaski Said

Making choices based on external stimuli does not equal predetermination.


It does if the choice is entirely a result of external stimuli. And my argument is that every “choice” is exactly that.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 04:10:31 pm
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@Leon Said

It does if the choice is entirely a result of external stimuli. And my argument is that every “choice” is exactly that.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Basically your argument is the same argument as used for the existence of god.

Joe turned right... see that was predetermined.
Joe turns left...see that was predetermined.
Joe stays in the getto and becomes a junkie...see that was predetermined.
Joe leaves the getto and never becomes a junkie...see that was predetermined.

Predetermination exists because all choices are based on stuff... god exists because there had to be a creator...

Ultimately no one can prove or disprove either.

People also say the universe had to have a beginning... that, to me, is absurd. I am completely capable imagining and believing in an infinite universe (going back in time infinitely and going forward in time infinitely). The religious don't like that, even though they like their infinite god. Scientists don't like it because they demand a beginning to a chain of cause & effect which dictates all outcomes.

Both sides use the same arguments for and against each other.

I see infinity, which includes infinite possibilities, which also includes many many choices.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 04:37:06 pm
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@chaski Said

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Basically your argument is the same argument as used for the existence of god.

Joe turned right... see that was predetermined.
Joe turns left...see that was predetermined.
Joe stays in the getto and becomes a junkie...see that was predetermined.
Joe leaves the getto and never becomes a junkie...see that was predetermined.

Predetermination exists because all choices are based on stuff... god exists because there had to be a creator...

Ultimately no one can prove or disprove either.

People also say the universe had to have a beginning... that, to me, is absurd. I am completely capable imagining and believing in an infinite universe (going back in time infinitely and going forward in time infinitely). The religious don't like that, even though they like their infinite god. Scientists don't like it because they demand a beginning to a chain of cause & effect which dictates all outcomes.

Both sides use the same arguments for and against each other.

I see infinity, which includes infinite possibilities, which also includes many many choices.


Determinism certainly isn’t a pleasing viewpoint and, probably even depressing, and therefore, understandably isn’t one that one is quick to fit into a viewpoint of existence.

I just find it impossible to escape it with our current understanding of science.

And does this science ultimately prove the existence of supernatural forces? Perhaps, or perhaps we simply haven’t yet been able to explain everything. (After all, that is what most religion is the result of.)

I will say this though, that the whole ballgame here changes once we accept it as part of the equation.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 09:05:20 pm
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@Leon Said


I just find it impossible to escape it with our current understanding of science.


I totally get what you are saying.

And relative to something like a meteor hitting the earth, I find it to be an absolute certainty. There is a meteor in route to earth right now. It may not hit for a year, or 10 or 1,000 or 1,000,000 or... etc... but like a pool ball traveling through the universe, there is one that has our name on it.

I also get the idea that at any point in time (snap shot) we are essentially the sum of our experiences plus all the other stuff.

I just put more value to the human ability to change its mind, and less value to science and what scientists think they know.

Einstein, "Joy and amazement of the beauty and grandeur of this world of which man can just form a faint notion."

>>> ...of which man can just form a faint notion.

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