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Determinism
June 03, 2019 @ 07:02:54 pm


If determinism is true
Then there is only one possible course of events.

If: there is only one possible course of events
And: Free Will is the ability to choose between alternative courses
Then: There is no free will

Free will is incompatible with determinism.

But…



If: determinism is false
And: determinism precludes [free will]
Then: [free will] is possible

So Our question is how do we prove or disprove determinism

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chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 03, 2019 @ 07:17:08 pm
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It seems to me, that if God is the all knowing creator (thus he already knows the outcome) and does everything for a reason (presumably because he has a plan)....


....then you are correct in your assessment determinism is true... and also that there is no free will.


Side note... or question:

Premise:

1. The biblical prophecies (regarding the Messiah, aka Jesus) clearly referenced a predetermined plan of God's.

2. In order to fulfill prophesy (God's plan) Jesus had to be betrayed by someone close to him.

3. Judas was this betrayer.

(Note: The description of Judas as the betrayer was pretty specific, it really could not have been one of the other Apostles.... again, predetermined.)

4. Did Judas really have free will?


darkman666

New Post! June 03, 2019 @ 07:28:14 pm
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you think about what if god is the one tell judas betrayal jesus? judas wasn't told by others to betray jesus. god told him in a dream.


Leon

New Post! June 03, 2019 @ 07:28:23 pm
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@chaski Said

It seems to me, that if God is the all knowing creator (thus he already knows the outcome) and does everything for a reason (presumably because he has a plan)....


....then you are correct in your assessment determinism is true... and also that there is no free will.


Side note... or question:

Premise:

1. The biblical prophecies (regarding the Messiah, aka Jesus) clearly referenced a predetermined plan of God's.

2. In order to fulfill prophesy (God's plan) Jesus had to be betrayed by someone close to him.

3. Judas was this betrayer.

(Note: The description of Judas as the betrayer was pretty specific, it really could not have been one of the other Apostles.... again, predetermined.)

4. Did Judas really have free will?


Are we limiting this topic of discussion to a belief or non belief in the Biblical god and its relation?

I think the greater question is whether or not free will is possible in our universe given what we have learned from science so far (regardless of whether or not there is a god). Doesn’t seem like it to me, as far as I can tell.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 03, 2019 @ 07:52:29 pm
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@Leon Said

Are we limiting this topic of discussion to a belief or non belief in the Biblical god and its relation?


I think we should not.

Since many are familiar with the basis of the bible, parts of it can be used as examples.

On the other hand, since so few have actually read it and base their opinion on what others have told them, using biblical examples can be risky... and can lead the topic astray.

@Leon Said

I think the greater question is whether or not free will is possible in our universe given what we have learned from science so far (regardless of whether or not there is a god). Doesn’t seem like it to me, as far as I can tell.


I don't believe in "determinism".

I do believe in "fee will".

I do believe in cause and effect.

However, every day... many times a day... people chose to do things. People drive to work the same way every day, then pick another route.... people go through life as a member of a given political party, but at some point in their life they change their mind... nurture suggests that people in a cast should remain in that case... the sexually abused become abusers or not... the affluent lose everything... some with nothing gain it all...

... identical twins are not the same, they sometimes make different choices....

etc.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 01:09:56 am
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@chaski Said

I think we should not.

Since many are familiar with the basis of the bible, parts of it can be used as examples.

On the other hand, since so few have actually read it and base their opinion on what others have told them, using biblical examples can be risky... and can lead the topic astray.



I don't believe in "determinism".

I do believe in "fee will".

I do believe in cause and effect.

However, every day... many times a day... people chose to do things. People drive to work the same way every day, then pick another route.... people go through life as a member of a given political party, but at some point in their life they change their mind... nurture suggests that people in a cast should remain in that case... the sexually abused become abusers or not... the affluent lose everything... some with nothing gain it all...

... identical twins are not the same, they sometimes make different choices....

etc.


It could be argued that everything is a specific reaction to stimuli, and therefore predetermined. Particularly if one believes that a “thought” is nothing more than a nerve impulse between neurons.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 01:42:33 am
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@Leon Said

It could be argued that everything is a specific reaction to stimuli, and therefore predetermined. Particularly if one believes that a “thought” is nothing more than a nerve impulse between neurons.



I view that butterfly effect stuff as a bit of a stretch.

But going with it just a little... a very little... we all have conflicting input in our live, as did everyone of our ancestors.

At some point one makes choices that go towards one set of influences over other sets of influences.

Which butterfly is the one that pushed us to turn right instead of left? Which butterfly pushed us to rise above a life as a drug user living in a drug user's environment with parents that are drugs users and friends that are drug users....? Which butter fly pushes one brother to rise and one to fall? Etc.

To me this "life of stimuli made me do it" is no better than "the devil made me do it".

We all have uncounted influences every second of every day... as did all of our fathers... and fathers' fathers.... back to the dinosaurs and before.

Sooner or later a choice is made that make one or one set of influences more important than the other influences.

Choice... free will... no grand plan... no unchangeable chain of events... but rather new events and new influences every single second of our lives.... until we die there will always be more influences...

...more butterflies flapping somewhere in the world... moving and changing everything all the time, ultimately within our lives only influences upon which we make our choices.


bob_the_fisherman

Anatidaephobic

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 02:20:42 am
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@chaski Said

It seems to me, that if God is the all knowing creator (thus he already knows the outcome) and does everything for a reason (presumably because he has a plan)....


....then you are correct in your assessment determinism is true... and also that there is no free will.


The conclusion does not follow from the premise. Knowing what a person will do and making them do it are not synonymous.

So for example, no doubt you have watched "Priscilla: Queen of the Desert" several times (looking for fashion ideas if nothing else ), however, the fact that you know what the characters will do does not mean you make them do it. No matter what the characters did, you would know what they did after watching it the first time, but have no effect on them doing it.

In other words, foreknowledge in no way precludes free will.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 02:42:44 am
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@chaski Said

I view that butterfly effect stuff as a bit of a stretch.

But going with it just a little... a very little... we all have conflicting input in our live, as did everyone of our ancestors.

At some point one makes choices that go towards one set of influences over other sets of influences.

Which butterfly is the one that pushed us to turn right instead of left? Which butterfly pushed us to rise above a life as a drug user living in a drug user's environment with parents that are drugs users and friends that are drug users....? Which butter fly pushes one brother to rise and one to fall? Etc.

To me this "life of stimuli made me do it" is no better than "the devil made me do it".

We all have uncounted influences every second of every day... as did all of our fathers... and fathers' fathers.... back to the dinosaurs and before.

Sooner or later a choice is made that make one or one set of influences more important than the other influences.

Choice... free will... no grand plan... no unchangeable chain of events... but rather new events and new influences every single second of our lives.... until we die there will always be more influences...

...more butterflies flapping somewhere in the world... moving and changing everything all the time, ultimately within our lives only influences upon which we make our choices.


Yes, science or its creator would shoulder all blame for what happens in a deterministic world view. But that should not be the reason for denying its existence.

One could argue that morality was built as just a self imposed set of rules bourne out of survival and/or pleasure, and not necessarily anything transcended.

Even if free will is in there somewhere I’d venture to say it consists of a tiny percentage. If its even possible at all (still not sure it is).

Heck look around. It was uncanny how student behaviors I saw as a teacher matched their parental backgrounds. Adults are not that much different.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 02:50:51 am
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True story:

I was in a philosophy class taught by a professor who was an ardent anti-determinist. One day he had a student hold out a small object in his hands in front of him, from which the professor stood in front of him and grabbed the object with one hand, trying his best to make it look as arbitrary and random as he could as to which hand he used to grab it, stating, “There is NOTHING that determined which hand I used.”

To which I calmly asked if he was indeed right handed.

Laughter erupted in the classroom, he sat down red faced, and never brought up the subject again.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 04:01:19 am
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@Leon Said

.....“There is NOTHING that determined which hand I used....”


Of course there are things that "determine" what we do (and which hand the student in your story used).

Being right handed could have played into it.

On the other hand, had he been left handed but still used his right hand, his brain... i.e. would have been used to "determine" which hand he used.

True story:

I played soccer in university. Unlike most Americans at the time, I was proficient with both feet. Close to equal, even though I am naturally "right footed". In games I typically defaulted to using my left foot.

That was "determined" by something.

It was actually a choice of mine. It was a technique (or set of techniques), which I thought about and practice, because I knew that it would throw off my opponents (consciously or unconsciously).


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 04:17:47 am
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@bob_the_fisherman Said

The conclusion does not follow from the premise.


Which premise?

That God is the all knowing creator of everything, who already knows the outcome and does everything for a reason and he has a some grand master plan?

That premise?

As is so often the case in discussion with you Bob, you take only very select portions of what people say, and then try to spin your opinion based on that limited point.

But yes Bob: You are correct, knowing what a person will do and making them do it are not synonymous.

On the other hand, setting up all the particulars of a situation, including making (i.e. creating) a person to do what you know he is going to do, is synonymous with making a person do something.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 04:33:57 am
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@chaski Said

Of course there are things that "determine" what we do (and which hand the student in your story used).

Being right handed could have played into it.

On the other hand, had he been left handed but still used his right hand, his brain... i.e. would have been used to "determine" which hand he used.

True story:

I played soccer in university. Unlike most Americans at the time, I was proficient with both feet. Close to equal, even though I am naturally "right footed". In games I typically defaulted to using my left foot.

That was "determined" by something.

It was actually a choice of mine. It was a technique (or set of techniques), which I thought about and practice, because I knew that it would throw off my opponents (consciously or unconsciously).


But see you just illustrated my point that the “choice” you made had a cause that wasn’t your own. Is that really a choice then?


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 04:48:55 am
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@Leon Said

But see you just illustrated my point that the “choice” you made had a cause that wasn’t your own.


Honestly, you might have well just replied to my post with: See, you just proved that god exists.

No. I did not just illustrate your point that my choice had a cause that wasn't my own.

Nothing in my illustration presents forces outside my personal decision, which was completely my own.

I literally made a conscious decision to develop and use my weaker limb. The only "cause" was my decision and the actions that supported that decision in the form of training.

I guess your argument here is that because the dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, that forced me to learn how to play soccer ambidextrously and then choose to favor my weaker limb during games.


Leon

New Post! June 04, 2019 @ 05:05:45 am
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@chaski Said

No I didn't. Nothing in my illustration presents forces outside my personal decision, completely my own.

I literally made a conscious decision to develop and use my weaker limb.

The only "cause" was literally my decision and the actions that supported that decision in the form of training.

I guess your argument here is that because the dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, that forced me to learn how to play soccer ambidextrously and then choose to favor my weaker limb during games.


“because I knew that it would throw off my opponents”

This is the cause of your decision to hone your left footed skills.

Plus your physical, cognitive, and emotional genetics, the discovery that relying solely on your right foot wasn’t having as desired an effect, opponent reactions, etc.

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