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On July 01, 2021 Erimitus


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The mind of God, Antarctica
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Equality
June 02, 2017 @ 08:49:37 pm

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Lucky: [a citizen is] A person who believes that 'all men are created Equal'

Comment: Hmmm.... As I understand it, the original intention of the phrase 'All men are created equal' was 'All rich white men are created equal'. I am not sure what Locke meant when he wrote that.

Comment: Today the phrase 'All men are created equal', is understood to mean; All humans have equal rights/duties)

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Erimitus: Clearly all humans are not created equal.

Comment: In some societies the ideology holds that all humans have equal rights and duties.

Comment: A citizen in such a society would be expected to accept equality.

Comment: If one of the rights of a society is freedom of speech ...and if a member of that society did not agree with equality; that citizen would have the right to voice that opinion. But ...that citizen would be expected to behave in a way consistent with the societies standards.

Comment: and ...and my mind wondered and I lost my train of thought.

comment: alas

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twilitezone911

New Post! June 02, 2017 @ 11:05:30 pm
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@Erimitus Said

________________________________________

Lucky: [a citizen is] A person who believes that 'all men are created Equal'

Comment: Hmmm.... As I understand it, the original intention of the phrase 'All men are created equal' was 'All rich white men are created equal'. I am not sure what Locke meant when he wrote that.

Comment: Today the phrase 'All men are created equal', is understood to mean; All humans have equal rights/duties)______________________________

Erimitus: Clearly all humans are not created equal.

Comment: In some societies the ideology holds that all humans have equal rights and duties.

Comment: A citizen in such a society would be expected to accept equality.

Comment: If one of the rights of a society is freedom of speech ...and if a member of that society did not agree with equality; that citizen would have the right to voice that opinion. But ...that citizen would be expected to behave in a way consistent with the societies standards.

Comment: and ...and my mind wondered and I lost my train of thought.

comment: alas



i took few minutes, i read a little about " john locke "( 1632-1702 ) he was the father of liberalism.

i read some of his accomplishmnents, not really come up with the op saying about him above.

during locke's time, he probably only saw rich men were the same, the middle class and poor men were below the rich men. blacks were slaves and didn't count as equal to anyone not the poorest white man.

blacks couldn't be equal to any white man system in america, because blacks were invisible to the america society for a long time coming.


Locke; [a citizen is] A person who believes that 'all men are created Equal'

Comment: Hmmm.... As I understand it, the original intention of the phrase 'All men are created equal' was 'All rich white men are created equal'. I am not sure what Locke meant when he wrote that.

Comment: Today the phrase 'All men are created equal', is understood to mean; All humans have equal rights/duties


at the time, locke must saw there was no equal in levels of society. he probably blacks as " the ugly americans ". which the rich white men never even notice the blacks than more than slaves.

during this time, locke maybe he first notice, the high society, you in the class society that america adapted from england. this probably why at this time, locke realized all men weren't equal.


this all i have understood from what the op trying to said this thread. i am lost after this.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 02, 2017 @ 11:33:15 pm
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The phrase "all men are created equal" is too often taken out of context.

It was never meant to indicate that all men are equal in things like intelligence, physical ability, position in life.

When considering the phrase "all men are created equal" one should put it in the context with which it was meant:

That: "...they (all men) are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

That is to say that all men are equal in the eyes of their "creator" in terms of their "rights"...not their physical or mental ability, nor their bank account....

The earthly extension of this idea is that all men are (or should be) treated equally in terms of their rights... and treated equally before the "eyes of justice"...and thus the idea that "justice is blind"...not blind about justice, but blind in terms of blind to the extraneous issues of a situation and only seeing the facts and evidence...not seeing color, physique, grade point average, etc...

Of course this isn't how things are in day to day life.

It is a philosophical ideology that "we" should aspire to....at least some believe that we should aspire to it.

People that want to take the phrase "all men are created equal" and argue that clearly all men are not actually created equal...some men are smarter, stronger, faster, etc are entirely missing the point.

Finally: In the phrase "men" arguably means "humans" in the phrase. Again, in the real world this may not be how things play out, but we are actually talking philosophy when addressing this phrase.

etc.


Erimitus

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 12:11:37 am
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and ...and as usual; I stand corrected.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 12:27:42 am
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@Erimitus Said

and ...and as usual; I stand corrected.



I don't think so.

You are asking important questions.

The answers require thought and (perhaps) discussion....refinement...

"Corrected"....no.

Maybe clarified....

Of course I could be mistaken...it has happened more frequently than I would prefer.


twilitezone911

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 12:52:54 am
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@chaski Said

I don't think so.

You are asking important questions.

The answers require thought and (perhaps) discussion....refinement...

"Corrected"....no.

Maybe clarified....

Of course I could be mistaken...it has happened more frequently than I would prefer.



chaski- you are right what you are said. i was coming with the same conclusions. it both: clarified and refinement for this thread.

from i was reading john locke from wiki, he was interesting man, and he was head of his time.

in wiki, doesn't really he seem that " equality issues " were involve what he was doing as whole.

i was looking for that quote above in the op's thread page. i was t5hinking about the movie, " the ugly american " starring marlan brando. the thread make more sense to me.

the op does need to get better with beginning statements in his threads. it does take me awhile to really figure them out.

when i start one of the op's thread, i turn off the light in my post. i use the method " shoot in the dark " to start coming ideas or though what the op is going far in his thread.

anyway, i turn back on the lights on my post, i missed again shoot twilite with my shotgun.

chaski- is good that you understand him, too.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 01:03:24 am
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@twilitezone911 Said

chaski- you are right what you are said. i was coming with the same conclusions. it both: clarified and refinement for this thread.

from i was reading john locke from wiki, he was interesting man, and he was head of his time.

in wiki, doesn't really he seem that " equality issues " were involve what he was doing as whole.

i was looking for that quote above in the op's thread page. i was t5hinking about the movie, " the ugly american " starring marlan brando. the thread make more sense to me.

the op does need to get better with beginning statements in his threads. it does take me awhile to really figure them out.

when i start one of the op's thread, i turn off the light in my post. i use the method " shoot in the dark " to start coming ideas or though what the op is going far in his thread.

anyway, i turn back on the lights on my post, i missed again shoot twilite with my shotgun.

chaski- is good that you understand him, too.


Thank you.

And, not that my opinion counts, I find it impressive that you have read John Locke.


twilitezone911

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 01:43:16 am
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@chaski Said

Thank you.

And, not that my opinion counts, I find it impressive that you have read John Locke.


thank you. i didn't know who he was, i never heard of him. i am only read what wilki is talking about him, but not his works. most of time on the forum, i usually have to look up words or people that you all reference to.

in school, my teachers were impressive by me. with my learning disabilities in reading and spelling.

with spelling tests, i read a list of ten words thousand times. on the test, i have mental blocks, i pretty good make up words that even close to the right word.

my teachers like my aggressive ( more obssesive drive to learn ) determination that my teachers gave extra homewwork like writing essay on the subject, we learning that i could understand. most my high school class materials were over my head.

my history teachers just let me copy pages out the history books to pass the class. all teachers were aware my learning disabilities, the really and bend ( really bend ) the grade level for me.

don't worry, chaski, i threated my high school, i was going get education from them, if take another six years in the high school. after that, my teachers didn't everything could get be graducated on time.

their inscentive from me, that i love to talk a lot in class, even when they were talking.

chaski, i try to get impressive wilki about to people or words meaning. for myself to learn.

seem to a good challenge for me everyday, on the forum. people doesn't brother or get under my skin. i been around them most of my life offline. it hardly noticeabe on the forum these years. that remind me, i need reload my shotgun, i got rabbit twilite shoot at tonight.


Erimitus

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 01:59:04 am
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I find it interesting that Locke wrote; "Life, Liberty, and property..."

...and Jefferson wrote; "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."


It kind of makes me wonder if Tom was opposed to the an equal right to property.


twilitezone911

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 02:09:24 am
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@Erimitus Said

I find it interesting that Locke wrote; "Life, Liberty, and property..."

...and Jefferson wrote; "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."


It kind of makes me wonder if Tom was opposed to the an equal right to property.



i know the difference between locke's quote and and jefferson's quote.

is the word " property " represent the blacks being property.

change to the word " property " to " the pursuit of happiness ", because america like jefferson and others see the backs were more than property.


chaski

Stalker

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 02:35:00 am
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@Erimitus Said

I find it interesting that Locke wrote; "Life, Liberty, and property..."

...and Jefferson wrote; "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..."


It kind of makes me wonder if Tom was opposed to the an equal right to property.


Locke had a dark personality (at least in some people's estimation). He never married. Never had children. Was raise in a Puritan household. While he was against suicide, for religious reasons, he at least contemplated it. He was "afflicted with delicate health". Paintings of him seem to present a sad person.

He may not have believed in "happiness".

Thomas Jefferson lived a different life that seemed to embrace a life of both liberty and happiness...at least mostly.


Erimitus

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 03:31:44 am
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TZ: change to the word " property " to " the pursuit of happiness ", because america like jefferson and others see the backs were more than property.

E: I did not know that.

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TZ: is the word " property " represent the blacks being property.

E: I do not know; I was thinking of property as real-estate. I suppose, though, that property could be considered anything owned.

Comment: If I understand correctly Jefferson was opposed to chattel slavery.

Comment: Tom argued that he could not, in good conscience, free his slaves into a society where they had no rights. He was good to the slaves he owned and had at least one child with one of his slave girls.

Comment: I believe he freed his slaves upon his death. Without his protection they were going to be cast into a society where they had no rights anyway.

Comment: Tom educated his slaves. If you own slaves and want to keep them servile, it is not a good idea educate them. A freed slave would still be ignorant, superstitious, and servile without an education.

Comment: you can't free a slave. They have to free themselves. And that is done with education.

Comment: ...and that is why I believe Tom wanted his slaves to be free.




E:


Erimitus

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 03:49:39 am
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twilitezone911

New Post! June 03, 2017 @ 04:27:26 am
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@Erimitus Said

TZ: change to the word " property " to " the pursuit of happiness ", because america like jefferson and others see the backs were more than property.

E: I did not know that.

_______________



TZ: is the word " property " represent the blacks being property.

E: I do not know; I was thinking of property as real-estate. I suppose, though, that property could be considered anything owned.

Comment: If I understand correctly Jefferson was opposed to chattel slavery.

Comment: Tom argued that he could not, in good conscience, free his slaves into a society where they had no rights. He was good to the slaves he owned and had at least one child with one of his slave girls.

Comment: I believe he freed his slaves upon his death. Without his protection they were going to be cast into a society where they had no rights anyway.

Comment: Tom educated his slaves. If you own slaves and want to keep them servile, it is not a good idea educate them. A freed slave would still be ignorant, superstitious, and servile without an education.

Comment: you can't free a slave. They have to free themselves. And that is done with education.

Comment: ...and that is why I believe Tom wanted his slaves to be free.



i never you know jefferson on personally note, to call him, " tom ". from your forum's avatar look pretty old.

twilite and i have a bet, that you are so old, you were the one gave george a toy axe to cut the cheery tree.

i really don't know that know much about jefferson, to come up with my conclusions about him.

seem know more jefferson than i do, you probably were good buddies in school.

back those days, even you read historical reference, you have assume that they lives were boring.

jefferson probably read a lot on his ipod. most of his wisdom came from the bible and other resources.

men depend on the bible for morality back then, jefferson understood how the eyptians treated the israelites.

it seem that the word " property " resprenting more than have farm animals, more it was a way of life . it would naturally jefferson to feel that way against slavery back then.

jefferson to education them to teach them not only free to be equal with his fellow americans.

you e-mail your friend, tom. just have one mutual friend on facebook, is a start somewhere.

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