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Forum Index > News & Politics > Animal Rights | >> these poor animals need our help! | | |
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rogy
Meister
1075 points
51/M/, United Kingdom
Join Date: Dec 2007 | doubtingthomas said:
Isn't that the basis of a "class" system. Doctors get more than garbage men. ?
Is that how you see it - that doctors are exploiting barbage persons?
rogy |  | |
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alexkidd
Captain Awesome!
Über-Moderator
39176 points
23/M/in a bog, Ireland
Join Date: Sep 2006 | rogy said: No, no. I have not said nonhuman animals deverse the same rights as human ones. In fact, I pointed out that there are NO animal rights philosophies that suggest this.
I suggest that all animals have rights - human animals too of course.
Indeed, I would argue that we build our (positive) human rights on our basic (negative) animal rights.
In animal rights thinking, all sentient animals have interests that can be protected by rights - that is what rights are designed to do, protect interests (particularly negative rights).
No-one talks of nonhuman animals' right to vote or to have ballet lessons: link [www.youtube.com]
rogy
animals do have rights,
they have the right to be treated as ethically as possible.
there's alot of laws regarding an animals rights.
currently these rights don't extend to what you suggest.
obviously animal rights can't extend to giving animals the full rights of humans, eg voting, but you are suggesting that they should be giving a moral value equal to humans.
in that you want to apply human definitions to them.
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rogy
Meister
1075 points
51/M/, United Kingdom
Join Date: Dec 2007 | adrinachrome said:
you may have already answered this if so ignore it. What rights do you think animals should be allowed?
First, I think most AR advocates would not see it has "allowing" nonhuman rights, rather respecting them.
The modern view of rights is that they are social constructs - ideasif you like. The animal rights position explores the notion of extending a limited number of basic rights to some nonhuman animals (the sentient ones). In this sense, "the sentients" is regarded as a moral category involving both human and nonhuman animals.
Philosopher Gary Francione argues for one right for animals - the right not to be property.
rogy | | | |
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rogy
Meister
1075 points
51/M/, United Kingdom
Join Date: Dec 2007 | alexkidd said:
animals do have rights,
they have the right to be treated as ethically as possible.
there's alot of laws regarding an animals rights.
currently these rights don't extend to what you suggest.
obviously animal rights can't extend to giving animals the full rights of humans, eg voting, but you are suggesting that they should be giving a moral value equal to humans.
in that you want to apply human definitions to them.
This raises the controversial issue in animal ethics of the difference between animal welfare and animal rights. These are not the same thing. For example, even a non-traditional version of animal welfare by Peter Singer, animal liberation, is not animal rights, although often mistakenly characterised as such, for example by PeTA. Singer is a utilitarian not a rightist. Tom Regan and Gary Francione are the best known animal rights philosophers.
So, your comment suggests some right to welfare which is not animal rights.
As an analogy - modern slavery includes forced sex slavery. It may be possible to try to regulate the conditions of the sex slaves - but that would not really address the needs of their fundamental human rights.
In terms of equality - animal ethicists talk of eqaual consideration but not of equal treatment. Of course this applies to human animals too - some humans do not qualify, as it were, for some rights that others have - those differently abled mentally, for example.
rogy | | | |
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rogy
Meister
1075 points
51/M/, United Kingdom
Join Date: Dec 2007 | doubtingthomas said:
Yes, a doctor does 30 mins of work and gets paid thousands. A garbage man works 10 hour days and gets paid little.
People in china get paid nickles so I can have a cheap radio, I don't even need.
Yes smarter people do take advantage of dumber (less fortunate) people.
The world is not a fair place. Its not fair for chinese, its not fair for the garbagemen. Its not a fair place for dairy cows.
Life isn't fair.
Move on!
You seem to be assuming that the Chinese people are not as smart as you are.
In effect, these global inequalities are structural and linked to the capitalist mode of production.
You might have just hit on something else that needs changing!
rogy | | | |
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rogy
Meister
1075 points
51/M/, United Kingdom
Join Date: Dec 2007 | psy said:
I don't condone animal cruelty whatso ever and i don't eat meat because of my own personal beliefs. Yet animals in one aspect have more rights than us! if an animal is sick or in pain a vet will put it down and out of it's misery, we as humans do not have that right yet except on the rare occassions in Holand where it has been allowed (there could be more cases around the world but i'm not an expert so don't know for sure).
Putting that aside though no living creature should be skinned alive whether it be a human, animal or mammal. Yet whether we like it or nor China etc will carry on doing it because they don't care at all! and it will be very hard to get them to change their laws unfortunately.
Ah, the good ol' right to be killed.
Of course, it is the animal property owner who arranges the killing with the vet - but I can see you point.
As I said before, animal rights calls for a cultural revolution - not a legal one - the latter would follow the former.
I am quite prepared to say, btw, that AR is a utopian idea, not that that makes it bad.
rogy | | | |
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rogy
Meister
1075 points
51/M/, United Kingdom
Join Date: Dec 2007 | doubtingthomas said:
I'm sorry.. why in essence does it need to be changed?
What, capitalism? You might be better seeking out a Marxist to explain the problems of a system based on profit, winners and losers and, apparently, a dog-eat-dog mentality.
rogy | | | |
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May 09, 2008 @ 00:41:43
