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Yes to suicide

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Conflict On March 25, 2024




Alcalá de Henares, Spain
#1New Post! Jun 21, 2016 @ 13:01:42
I believe there are cases when we can't reject suicide as a possible outcome. I would like to outline them, for example...

I remember from an episode in Comissarrio Montalbano a scene where he confronts the killer on a piece of the land overlooking a construction site and after she walks backwards off the ledge, falling to her death in the construction pit some 100 feet below. As she does this, he runs forward in a vain attempt to stop her and he says, "no!"

Now, let's consider the circumstances, shall we? Had this person gone with the Comisario, she would've received a life sentence, after which life would have been harder for her. Her employers would have been distrustful, or at the very least suspicious of her.

Also, think of the tax payer's money that would be wasted. I don't think people would be very happy with one more murderer being jailed, housed and fed, on their money, so in the end, I believe her suicide was a necessary act because...

a) She wouldn't kill again.

b) She'd avoid upsetting people because part of their income tax went to feed her.

c) Her life wouldn't have been worth much after her release.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#2New Post! Jun 21, 2016 @ 13:16:30
What makes you the authority on point C?
twilitezone911 On March 25, 2019




Saint Louis, Missouri
#3New Post! Jun 21, 2016 @ 13:47:50
b) She'd avoid upsetting people because part of their income tax went to feed her.

this make sense more how legal system works with criminals.

in her own way of thinking, if she kill herself. it would eliminate the middle man, the people, the taxes and the legal process.

it doesn't make sense, is saving a lot of necessary steps that goes through for the society to get justice for the people.

she did killing her first, what the society would done to her in long run.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#4New Post! Jun 21, 2016 @ 16:04:26
I'm not entirely au fait with the scenario here so could somebody please clarify that this thread is intended as a general discussion on euthanasia, or whether it is more to do with a scene from a soap opera or something similar.


Signed:
Confused Brit.
twilitezone911 On March 25, 2019




Saint Louis, Missouri
#5New Post! Jun 21, 2016 @ 16:13:18
@Jennifer1984 Said

I'm not entirely au fait with the scenario here so could somebody please clarify that this thread is intended as a general discussion on euthanasia, or whether it is more to do with a scene from a soap opera or something similar.


Signed:
Confused Brit.



Jennifer - I am not sure if anything, more you are thinking in general. this scenario that the op asking. anything beyond in your imagination.
psycoskunk On December 24, 2020
Funky-Footed Skunk





A fort made of stinky socks, C
#6New Post! Jun 21, 2016 @ 16:59:57
@Conflict Said
Also, think of the tax payer's money that would be wasted. I don't think people would be very happy with one more murderer being jailed, housed and fed, on their money, so in the end, I believe her suicide was a necessary act because...

b) She'd avoid upsetting people because part of their income tax went to feed her.


Well, that could possibly be true, if it weren't for the privatization of the prison system, where the owners of the prison are actually paid per inmate incarcerated. Taxpayer's money gets wasted regardless, so her being in prison wouldn't be as big of a drain on society as you might think.

And don't kid yourself. It's not like she'd be put up in a fancy prison cell with a queen-sized bed, chamber music playing over the intercom as she's being hand-fed cuts of premium prime rib with a paired Pinot Gris from Provence. Because prisons are run like a business and because in business it's profit over people, that results in the mistreatment of the prisoners in the forms of massive overcrowding, rotting and maggot-infested food, cuts to services to maximize profits, etc... If she didn't commit suicide before, odds are she would've tried to in prison.
DuLu On January 11, 2017
CHOOSE HAPPINESS!!!





Waverly, Washington
#7New Post! Jun 21, 2016 @ 17:55:36
So many levels/ways of looking at this.
If a person is in their right mind (or as right as it can be or 'is' for them), then who has the right to say they
shouldn't/can't take their own life - suicide/euthanasia, whatever the case may be.
floydgirrl On October 08, 2022
Stalkee





Pope's Wine Celler, Holy See (
#8New Post! Jun 21, 2016 @ 18:18:53
@Jennifer1984 Said

I'm not entirely au fait with the scenario here so could somebody please clarify that this thread is intended as a general discussion on euthanasia, or whether it is more to do with a scene from a soap opera or something similar.


Signed:
Confused Brit.


It has more to do with a scene from a soap opera than euthanasia. He does a lot. Take a scene from a movie and analyzes it and explains his conclusions and then wants us to discuss. I don't think in anyway he wants to talk about euthanasia, just that particular character's suicide.
twilitezone911 On March 25, 2019




Saint Louis, Missouri
#9New Post! Jun 21, 2016 @ 18:19:21
this scene is that the op has been many movies or tv shows, it wouldn't depend on the scene, where this take place.

you decuded by any scene that a mountain cliff, or a roof.

if she was going to kill her, why would she walk backward.

the op doesn't explain if she was try to use her position on the ledge to lure the inspector to his death. was she scare or her right mind on the ledge.

did she want to kill herself or she ran out of opinions to escape?

she accidently lost her balance and just fell of the ledge. ( the strongest possible in this scenario. )

would suicide was her opinion or opportunity that just came up on the ledge?

what be the different suicide or be shot and fall the ledge or be kill by the inspector.

I think no to suicide, but opportunity for suicide was the possibility or just coincidence.
Conflict On March 25, 2024




Alcalá de Henares, Spain
#10New Post! Jun 22, 2016 @ 20:36:07
@Eaglebauer Said

What makes you the authority on point C?


Well, luring her husband intro a trap and killing him would certainly go a long way in convincing society to believe she'd be reformed into a saint before passing away in prison. I say this because in Italy, and I would imagine Sicily too, unless I am mistaken, in which case please tell me, murder almost always leads to a life sentence. I'm sure this woman would have reaped immeasurable benefits from living in a jail cell until the end of her days.

@psycoskunk Said

Well, that could possibly be true, if it weren't for the privatization of the prison system, where the owners of the prison are actually paid per inmate incarcerated. Taxpayer's money gets wasted regardless, so her being in prison wouldn't be as big of a drain on society as you might think.

And don't kid yourself. It's not like she'd be put up in a fancy prison cell with a queen-sized bed, chamber music playing over the intercom as she's being hand-fed cuts of premium prime rib with a paired Pinot Gris from Provence. Because prisons are run like a business and because in business it's profit over people, that results in the mistreatment of the prisoners in the forms of massive overcrowding, rotting and maggot-infested food, cuts to services to maximize profits, etc... If she didn't commit suicide before, odds are she would've tried to in prison.



Very good points. Therefore, she made the right choice. Better die with dignity than to slowly putrefy in prison. I know I'd try to commit suicide in prison under those conditions too and do my best not to fail.


@twilitezone911 Said

this scene is that the op has been many movies or tv shows, it wouldn't depend on the scene, where this take place.

you decuded by any scene that a mountain cliff, or a roof.

if she was going to kill her, why would she walk backward.

the op doesn't explain if she was try to use her position on the ledge to lure the inspector to his death. was she scare or her right mind on the ledge.

did she want to kill herself or she ran out of opinions to escape?

she accidently lost her balance and just fell of the ledge. ( the strongest possible in this scenario. )

would suicide was her opinion or opportunity that just came up on the ledge?

what be the different suicide or be shot and fall the ledge or be kill by the inspector.

I think no to suicide, but opportunity for suicide was the possibility or just coincidence.


She looked backwards once or twice while speaking to Montalbano and the peaceful way she stood before she pushed off the balls of her feet almost definitely indicates she wanted to commit suicide all along, in my eyes. Perhaps if Montalbano had been closer, she might have tried to throw him off instead, but his colleagues were nearby, so, more likely, she'd have tried to kill him and herself at the same time, if that were at all possible.

She fell backwards because it was the surest way that Montalbano wouldn't be able to break her fall. Had she turned and then stepped off, he might have had time to leap and grab her, thus preventing her attempt. Facing him, and knowing how far he was from her was crucial to making sure that she was successful.
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#11New Post! Jun 22, 2016 @ 21:03:23
@Conflict Said

Well, luring her husband intro a trap and killing him would certainly go a long way in convincing society to believe she'd be reformed into a saint before passing away in prison. I say this because in Italy, and I would imagine Sicily too, unless I am mistaken, in which case please tell me, murder almost always leads to a life sentence. I'm sure this woman would have reaped immeasurable benefits from living in a jail cell until the end of her days.


I asked a question with no sarcasm and it would have been a more civil move to answer without it as well.

My question stands.

What makes you the authority that someone else's life has little value or worth? It's a perfectly fair and civil question. Your statement was rather cavalier and I wonder why it is that you believe you can speak for her on how much value her own life holds.

Please answer without referencing fictional movies or television. They are not valid authorities on this.
twilitezone911 On March 25, 2019




Saint Louis, Missouri
#12New Post! Jun 22, 2016 @ 22:26:28
@Conflict Said

Well, luring her husband intro a trap and killing him would certainly go a long way in convincing society to believe she'd be reformed into a saint before passing away in prison. I say this because in Italy, and I would imagine Sicily too, unless I am mistaken, in which case please tell me, murder almost always leads to a life sentence. I'm sure this woman would have reaped immeasurable benefits from living in a jail cell until the end of her days.




Very good points. Therefore, she made the right choice. Better die with dignity than to slowly putrefy in prison. I know I'd try to commit suicide in prison under those conditions too and do my best not to fail.




She looked backwards once or twice while speaking to Montalbano and the peaceful way she stood before she pushed off the balls of her feet almost definitely indicates she wanted to commit suicide all along, in my eyes. Perhaps if Montalbano had been closer, she might have tried to throw him off instead, but his colleagues were nearby, so, more likely, she'd have tried to kill him and herself at the same time, if that were at all possible.

She fell backwards because it was the surest way that Montalbano wouldn't be able to break her fall. Had she turned and then stepped off, he might have had time to leap and grab her, thus preventing her attempt. Facing him, and knowing how far he was from her was crucial to making sure that she was successful.



well, after you leave so much information out of scenario, as told me above.

at that moment, I think she decide to commit suicide. even, it look like she was thinking it. doesn't mean, that her intent to kill herself on the ledge.

montalbano, why would he try to grab her, if he trying to kill her?

yes, by the way of pushing off with the balls of her feet. there is a small glimpse maybe a strong possible that she wasn't try to commit suicide after all, but revenge.

this scenario, you can see in any movie or TV's scene.

if she just fell backward, she would too close the ledge to grabbed on to.

since, she push herself with the balls of her feet. that is momentum that mean pushing away from the ledge.

she push herself away from the ledge. with the momentum, would naturally fall backward and drop. but her body lean forward toward the ledge. it would naturally, she would reach for the ledge.

so, she with one hand held the ledge barely and dangling in the air. naturally, montalbano would try to step on her fingers to get her let go, and fall to her death.

when he stepping on her fingers ( this scene, when she had only two fingers on the ledge. ) during she is getting with her last strength, and grab montalbano's pant's leg. then she pushing off balance, and he fall off the ledge to his death.

whether, she fall with him or she still holding on. that's another matter.
Grasshopper On January 11, 2023
Just me.





Fort Collins, Colorado
#13New Post! Jun 22, 2016 @ 23:18:10
Whatever the story may be, we all have a right to our own lives as it's the only thing we truly own. Suicide is always a right to the individual.
Conflict On March 25, 2024




Alcalá de Henares, Spain
#14New Post! Jun 24, 2016 @ 12:48:04
@Eaglebauer Said

I asked a question with no sarcasm and it would have been a more civil move to answer without it as well.

My question stands.

What makes you the authority that someone else's life has little value or worth? It's a perfectly fair and civil question. Your statement was rather cavalier and I wonder why it is that you believe you can speak for her on how much value her own life holds.

Please answer without referencing fictional movies or television. They are not valid authorities on this.


As you wish. Let's contemplate life after the the prison term for someone sentenced to prison for life, if they were ever paroled. I don't think it's very likely that someone convicted of murder, and of trying to carry on as normal as if nothing had happened, would be very popular once they were released. Employers would be skeptical, or at the very least, doubt that the murderer would not kill again. The chances of a leopard changes its spots are non-existent and people taming their inner wolf or whatever you want to call it, are too. People are the way they are, how life makes them and they may evolve, but I don't think they change.

Now, life in prison without release would amount to the kind of oppression that psychoskunk has referred to. Cuts to services, bad food, etc. This wouldn't amount to anything much. Also, think about the treatment said person would receive at the hands of the inmates.

So that is why I say the person's life wouldn't be worth much after getting a life sentence, that suicide would be a viable alternative, which is why I believe the death penalty is fair and just. Better to go with dignity and free the world of any more killing, than to stay and risk the loss of your reputation, the trust of your peers.

Does this answer your question?
Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
Moderator
Deleted



Saint Louis, Missouri
#15New Post! Jun 24, 2016 @ 15:10:05
@Conflict Said

As you wish. Let's contemplate life after the the prison term for someone sentenced to prison for life, if they were ever paroled. I don't think it's very likely that someone convicted of murder, and of trying to carry on as normal as if nothing had happened, would be very popular once they were released. Employers would be skeptical, or at the very least, doubt that the murderer would not kill again. The chances of a leopard changes its spots are non-existent and people taming their inner wolf or whatever you want to call it, are too. People are the way they are, how life makes them and they may evolve, but I don't think they change.


Ah, so to you, the worth of a person's life and if he should live or die is based on his popularity in society? Where is that line? Should a twenty year old who has never committed murder but is not popular consider suicide a viable option as well? How about a fifteen year old? How about a ten year old who doesn't like that he has to do homework and isn't popular in school?

You are making a lot of very dangerous leaps in thinking and very broad assumptions, which should not be a process involved in dealing with whether or not someone ought to live or die.

And I wonder if you've researched at all how many convicted murderers have been later released and gone on to live productive lives?

*SPOILER ALERT* -- I have and it's pretty damaging to your argument.

Quote:


Now, life in prison without release would amount to the kind of oppression that psychoskunk has referred to. Cuts to services, bad food, etc. This wouldn't amount to anything much. Also, think about the treatment said person would receive at the hands of the inmates.

So that is why I say the person's life wouldn't be worth much after getting a life sentence, that suicide would be a viable alternative, which is why I believe the death penalty is fair and just. Better to go with dignity and free the world of any more killing, than to stay and risk the loss of your reputation, the trust of your peers.

Does this answer your question?


Have you ever known anyone personally who has been in prison? Have you ever been to prison?

Actually...let me back up on that and ask a different question.

Let's imagine a theoretical person. He doesn't know you, has never met you, and has no life experience that is comparable to yours. When he looks at your life, he cannot in his mind imagine how you could ever be happy or fulfilled and doesn't believe that anything in your life is worthwhile.

Is this person qualified to decide for you whether or not your life is worth anything?

Is anyone qualified to determine for someone else if his or her life is worth something, or is that a decision that should be left to an individual to decide for him or herself?

I understand the point you are making, I just don't agree that you are qualified to determine what someone else's life is worth. And I'm not saying that specifically of you, I am also not qualified to make those sorts of determinations.

I don't have much issue with the idea that a person may choose suicide or claim authority over the worth of his or her own life, I have issue with your idea that one person can claim authority over the worth of another person's life.
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