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Mar 06, 2008 @ 01:36:46

#61

shadowy

Minister
10496 points

24/M/Glasgow, United Kingdom
Join Date: Oct 2007

vizzy said:
Doh!

I'm sure if dogs could form a consensus they would consider K9 rights more important than human rights

but since they can't someone else has to speak for them.

Those who don't believe in evolution haven't benefited from it.

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 22:27:44

#62

rogy

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50/M/, United Kingdom
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vizzy said:
Ok, Amnesty International adn animal rights adn now rape and eating meat? Seriously? You link these two?

Yes of course. You have to understand that animal rights is based on extending some human rights principles - the application of negative rights for example.

Animal rights is not about nonhumans having rights to education or voting, for example, but to negative nights like the right NOT to be tortured.

Recent animal rights advocacy takes seriously the notion that nonhuman animals can be rights bearers and many of the things we do to them are rights violatioms.

In this sense animal rights is not the same as animal welfarism. To really appreciate these points needs some familiarity with the philosophy of Gary Francione.

rogy

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 22:30:23

#63

psycoskunk

Über-Minister
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17/M/Skunkland, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2006

shadowy said:
Perhaps i will turn up on your door step with a spear and a bbq. Survival of the fittest.

Possibly, but that's what rifles are for.

Skunky is very sensitive about odor! Thanks Googlism!

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 22:33:29

#64

shadowy

Minister
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24/M/Glasgow, United Kingdom
Join Date: Oct 2007

psycoskunk said:
Possibly, but that's what rifles are for.

I'm not humane enough to use a rifle.

Those who don't believe in evolution haven't benefited from it.

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 22:44:06

#65

rogy

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shadowy said:
I'm sure if dogs could form a consensus they would consider K9 rights more important than human rights

but since they can't someone else has to speak for them.

You assume that others are just as prejudiced as yourself?--- interesting.

rogy

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 22:57:26

#66

shadowy

Minister
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24/M/Glasgow, United Kingdom
Join Date: Oct 2007

rogy said:
You assume that others are just as prejudiced as yourself?--- interesting.

rogy

How am i prejudiced?

Those who don't believe in evolution haven't benefited from it.

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 23:04:16

#67

rogy

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50/M/, United Kingdom
Join Date: Dec 2007

shadowy said:
How am i prejudiced?

You appear to believe that a member of any given species - given the abiity to think ethically - will favour their own.

Isn't that essentially saying that a person of a given "race" or gender will favour thier own?

Given that we are all sentients, the AR case simply asks why humans are always the most important?

rogy

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 23:07:30

#68

psycoskunk

Über-Minister
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17/M/Skunkland, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2006

rogy said:
You appear to believe that a member of any given species - given the abiity to think ethically - will favour their own.
rogy

Well, if you were an animal, would you rather hang out with another animal of the same species which you can relate to, or some other creature that looks different and may or may not eat you? That's why you don't normally see bears, raccoons and skunks hanging out together except in cartoons and sometimes on the news in zoos.

Skunky is very sensitive about odor! Thanks Googlism!

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 23:22:07

#69

rogy

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psycoskunk said:
Well, if you were an animal, would you rather hang out with another animal of the same species which you can relate to, or some other creature that looks different and may or may not eat you? That's why you don't normally see bears, raccoons and skunks hanging out together except in cartoons and sometimes on the news in zoos.

First - I am an animal - and so are you. We humans are able to relate to more than just humans are't we? Bears, raccoons and skunks are not human moral agents.

We keep aying we have abilties that other species lack or are not well developed - let's put that into practice.

rogy

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 23:30:32

#70

psycoskunk

Über-Minister
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17/M/Skunkland, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2006

rogy said:
First - I am an animal - and so are you. We humans are able to relate to more than just humans are't we? Bears, raccoons and skunks are not human moral agents.

We keep aying we have abilties that other species lack or are not well developed - let's put that into practice.

rogy

Yeah, but you don't see people dancing in the woods, hand in paw with badgers singing 'We are the World.' If animals could speak and were just like us in everyway, except for their furryness and traits, do you really think that they wouldn't prefer others of their own kind?

Skunky is very sensitive about odor! Thanks Googlism!

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 23:35:47

#71

rogy

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psycoskunk said:
Yeah, but you don't see people dancing in the woods, hand in paw with badgers singing 'We are the World.' If animals could speak and were just like us in everyway, except for their furryness and traits, do you really think that they wouldn't prefer others of their own kind?

Does it matter?

rogy

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 23:39:12

#72

psycoskunk

Über-Minister
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17/M/Skunkland, Canada
Join Date: Jun 2006

You claimed that shadowy was prejudiced about thinking that animals favor their own. I'm pretty sure if given the opportunity to speak and act like us that wolves would favour other wolves over other animals.

Skunky is very sensitive about odor! Thanks Googlism!

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Mar 06, 2008 @ 23:41:44

#73

rogy

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psycoskunk said:
You claimed that shadowy was prejudiced about thinking that animals favor their own. I'm pretty sure if given the opportunity to speak and act like us that wolves would favour other wolves over other animals.

and what follows from that???

rogy

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Mar 07, 2008 @ 02:05:03

#74

shadowy

Minister
10496 points

24/M/Glasgow, United Kingdom
Join Date: Oct 2007

rogy said:
You appear to believe that a member of any given species - given the abiity to think ethically - will favour their own.

Isn't that essentially saying that a person of a given "race" or gender will favour thier own?

Given that we are all sentients, the AR case simply asks why humans are always the most important?

rogy

That is what i am essentially saying, but it is an average. If you look at my posts it is obvious i don't consider human rights more important than the rights of any other animal. I am sure a minority of dogs would think the same, if they felt inclined to ponder this kind of thing.

Those who don't believe in evolution haven't benefited from it.

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Mar 08, 2008 @ 04:31:51

#75

woubit

Recruit
11 points

52/NA/London, United Kingdom
Join Date: Mar 2008

rogy said:
You appear to believe that a member of any given species - given the ability to think ethically - will favour their own.

Isn't that essentially saying that a person of a given "race" or gender will favour their own?

Given that we are all sentients, the AR case simply asks why humans are always the most important?

rogy

Even if an animal - including a human animal - were not "thinking ethically" (or not thinking at all) it would appear to "favour its own", whether its own self, or its own family, or its own species. That is how the sentient beings in the world evolved - humans and non-human animals alike. It is also, of course, how plants evolved.

But now, there is a special kind of animal - one that because it understands what it is to suffer, or what it is to have a right, can say simply "there shall be no more suffering, because my fellow animals have rights". One of those special animals said "I have a dream today."

Now, that kind of thing may be easy to say but hard to carry through when it comes to the ways in which humans treat other humans. Maybe, though, other humans forfeit their rights in some way through their own fault (perceived or actual). Maybe some humans think that some other humans are beneath consideration. Maybe that justifies humans treating other humans badly - "they deserve it".

But surely, non-human animals don't forfeit their rights in any way, nor do they deserve mistreatment through any fault of their own. Are they "beneath consideration"? If so, why?

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Edited: March 08, 2008 @ 04:44

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