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How the Brothers Grimm Fairy Tales Silence Women

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LuckyCharms On July 31, 2021
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#1New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 04:00:12
How the Brothers Grimm Fairy Tales Silence Women

Very good read. The reality is I could quote dang near the whole piece. To make a long story short, it's an article tracing the known history of fairy tales and their transition over time. Their origins to their current form - in which the violence remains, but they have been sanitized of sex and the women silenced.

Quote:
"The classic fairy tale was appropriated to serve the purpose of socializing children," writes Tatar, and "the Grimms seem to have favored violence over whimsy." Violence, in the right context, was considered funny to young readers, while explicit references to sex were perceived as superfluous to the story, providing neither moral guidance nor entertainment. And, loyal as they claimed to be to their purpose of accurately recording the tales, the Grimms had books to sell.


Quote:
The Grimms didn't just shy away from the feminine details of sex, their telling of the stories repeatedly highlight violent acts against women. Women die in child birth again and again in Grimms' tales — in "Snow White," "Cinderella," and "Rapunzel" — having served their societal duties by producing a beautiful daughter to replace her. Those fair princesses aren't exempt from violence, as many are banished to towers, trees and forests, where they perform domestic duties until saved by a cunning prince. Although men are also the subjects of execution in the tales, their deaths are disproportionately the result of some sort of legal trialproving their guilt, whereas their female counterparts are violently discarded by nature's whims. So, violence against women is illustrated as a harsh fact of life, whereas brutalities against men require logical justification.


Quote:
When they aren't the victims of violent crimes or acts of nature, the women in Grimms' stories while away their time silently. Bottigheimer broke down the speech patterns of fairy tale characters, and the gender divide is clearer here than anywhere else. In "Hansel and Gretel," Hansel speaks more often and for longer than his sister, and the first phrase he utters to her happens to be, "Quiet, Gretel." This explicit shushing is a common thread throughout the Grimms' take on folklore; spells of silence are cast on women more than they are on men, and the characters most valued by male suitors are those who speak infrequently, or don't speak at all.


Quote:
It's worth noting that while this theme of female silence is prevalent throughout the written fairy tales published in Germany and enduring in America today, this trend wasn't always the norm: Charles Perrault's French renditions of these stories place greater value on beautiful women who are also articulate. This is evidenced by Perrault's pluckiest heroines, the women at the center of "Ricky of the Tuft," a story that prizes intelligence over physical attraction among potential female partners. The story, unsurprisingly, was not included in the Grimms' anthology; it'd have been a strange, lovely anomaly among the rest.


Quote:
A recent study conducted by The Washington Post reveals that while earlier Disney films divvied up dialogue between princesses and princes equally, the speaking parts in the movies became notably less equal in the 1980s and '90s. The worst offender of this Silent Princess Syndrome is "Aladdin," in which Jasmine speaks only 10 percent of the movie's lines.


Quote:
"For me, one of the most interesting things about looking through old fairy tales has been looking at the ways women were depicted back then, and how a lot of things actually haven't changed," Sparks said. "We still have these almost medieval notions about women at times, with our control over them and their bodies."
twilitezone911 On March 25, 2019




Saint Louis, Missouri
#2New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 05:17:36
i never really thought it until now.

i was thinking that in many of their stories that mothers are not that mentioned in their stories, few times, fathers are.

the stories are designed for little kids to be independent in the stories.

that could one reason, may the real reason, it this could disturbing to parents and to us.

these grimm fairy tales are show parents are abandoning their children.
psycoskunk On December 24, 2020
Funky-Footed Skunk





A fort made of stinky socks, C
#3New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 05:42:19
See Newt? This is how you do a thread discussing the depiction of women in the media! No Youtube stories, no misinterpretations, no crazy-ass wild assumptions based on dumb bulls***... Link to the article, brief synopsis, quotes from said article, everything needed for an open discussion. Take note.
psycoskunk On December 24, 2020
Funky-Footed Skunk





A fort made of stinky socks, C
#4New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 05:49:44
Quote:
A recent study conducted by The Washington Post reveals that while earlier Disney films divvied up dialogue between princesses and princes equally, the speaking parts in the movies became notably less equal in the 1980s and '90s. The worst offender of this Silent Princess Syndrome is "Aladdin," in which Jasmine speaks only 10 percent of the movie's lines.


To be fair though, nobody really watches Aladdin for Jasmine. Nothing against her or anything, but when you've got one of the most badass Disney villains of all time on-screen with Robin Williams and f***ing Gilbert Gottfried, she's kinda the last character I'm invested it.

Ever since I was a kid, Iago was one of my favourite characters, mainly because of his voice. I used to practice it when I was younger and I can kinda sound like him sometimes. It's a hard voice to do. Certain words and phrases are definitely easier than others.
adrinachrome On April 04, 2023




Fukitall, Arizona
#5New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 12:02:32
Wait... So these guys wrote books to appeal to their time, to make money... And we're still doing that? And that's bad?

Or wait... They weren't concerned with the money and made these stories purely to keep women down. That makes total sense.


Should all stories be as much about women as they are men? What happens if the protagonist is male? Should i chuck the book?

I dont like this attack on books going on here.

But thats ok right?
LuckyCharms On July 31, 2021
Magically Delicious





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#6New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 12:17:06
@adrinachrome Said

Wait... So these guys wrote books to appeal to their time, to make money... And we're still doing that? And that's bad?

Or wait... They weren't concerned with the money and made these stories purely to keep women down. That makes total sense.


Should all stories be as much about women as they are men? What happens if the protagonist is male? Should i chuck the book?

I dont like this attack on books going on here.

But thats ok right?


One could say that the attack on literature was perpetrated by the hucksters Grimm.

If examining facts and history is considered an attack then we may as well embrace the dark ages once again.

Rest assured there is no lack of stories with male protagonists.
adrinachrome On April 04, 2023




Fukitall, Arizona
#7New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 12:22:16
@LuckyCharms Said

One could say that the attack on literature was perpetrated by the hucksters Grimm.

If examining facts and history is considered an attack then we may as well embrace the dark ages once again.

Rest assured there is no lack of stories with male protagonists.



The best ones usually do
LuckyCharms On July 31, 2021
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#8New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 12:25:28
@adrinachrome Said

The best ones usually do



Define "best".
adrinachrome On April 04, 2023




Fukitall, Arizona
#9New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 12:29:45
@LuckyCharms Said

Define "best".



When it comes to story books Thats harder to narrow down then it seems. At least for me.
LuckyCharms On July 31, 2021
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#10New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 12:32:39
@adrinachrome Said

When it comes to story books Thats harder to narrow down then it seems. At least for me.


Well yes. But I was more pointing to the reality of art vs money and mass consumption.

Mass consumption has ruined a lot of things. And it is important to note those. Otherwise they will be lost.
adrinachrome On April 04, 2023




Fukitall, Arizona
#11New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 12:35:08
@LuckyCharms Said

Well yes. But I was more pointing to the reality of art vs money and mass consumption.

Mass consumption has ruined a lot of things. And it is important to note those. Otherwise they will be lost.



Wait, what has mass consumption ruined? Not stories.
LuckyCharms On July 31, 2021
Magically Delicious





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#12New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 12:42:41
@adrinachrome Said

Wait, what has mass consumption ruined? Not stories.



You have açcess to more yes, but don't mistake quantity with quality. There's a lot of dreck out there.

There's a lot more burger Kings than prime steak houses.
adrinachrome On April 04, 2023




Fukitall, Arizona
#13New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 12:47:31
@LuckyCharms Said

You have açcess to more yes, but don't mistake quantity with quality. There's a lot of dreck out there.

There's a lot more burger Kings than prime steak houses.



Yes true, but not everyone can be brilliant.

I've read the classics, our stories are much better now. At least as far as im concerned.
LuckyCharms On July 31, 2021
Magically Delicious





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#14New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 13:08:13
@adrinachrome Said

Yes true, but not everyone can be brilliant.

I've read the classics, our stories are much better now. At least as far as im concerned.



I don't disagree - especially in terms of variety. Access to the variety of literature is one of the good things. In the small world of the 1800s, I don't think they had much scifi or fantasy stuff.
adrinachrome On April 04, 2023




Fukitall, Arizona
#15New Post! Jan 21, 2017 @ 13:21:56
@LuckyCharms Said

I don't disagree - especially in terms of variety. Access to the variety of literature is one of the good things. In the small world of the 1800s, I don't think they had much scifi or fantasy stuff.




Shelley, Poe, Verne, Wells, Twain.
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