Okay, there seems to be a VAST amount of misinformation as to what "Goth Music" actually means. I'm aware there is a lot of ambiguity - but it doesn't change that there are some things that definitely *are* goth, or relevant to goth, and things that aren't.

Most of the bands discussed here aren't even "goth friendly" bands - bands that take genuine influence from goth rock bands and fit in somewhat despite standing out(Smashing Pumpkins, Tori Amos, Dresden Dolls are three I can think of right now).

I'll start by defining what goth music is NOT:

Marilyn Manson
Cradle of Filth
Korn
Slipknot
The HIM

Just about ANYTHING that teens who are also into those bands are into probably isn't goth.

Goth isn't "Something different for every person" anymore than punk is. Goth is a umbrella that applies to several specific things that work together in a particular collection of styles. There are some things that fit under it, as they have *come out of* the scene or been heavily influenced out of it, and things that don't, as they are near-oblivious to it(or at least their fans are).

Goth is a musical style that was derived from punk and evolved to more traditional "gothic" aspects like choirs, organs and pianos, as well as often having some electro elements.

I'll over-simplify goth into a few subsections -

The influencing artists behind goth rock were the Doors, the Velvet Underground, and David Bowie, as well as (obviously) punk. The combination of punk with the ideas of these artists as well as the general evolution of the genre quickly led to:

Post-punk(basically rock/punk with some elements of the genres below):

Siouxsie and the Banshees
The Cure
Joy Division
The Chameleons

Most of these were in the late 70s, with the exception of the Chameleons(who are a double anachronism for combining the 70s post punk sound with the 90s indie sound).

Goth never really had a name to begin with; until someone described Joy Division's performance as "gothic", meaning it as an insult. Somehow, the name stuck.

Soon, post-punk led to the rise of:

Goth Rock(clangy, jangly guitars, spooky vocals, occasional use of spooky synths, lots of reverb, quite a bit of chorus/other effects):

Bauhaus (1979+)
The Sisters of Mercy(as much as they refuse it, 1980+)
The Mission (split off from the above, 1984+)
Specimen (1979+)
Alien Sex Fiend (really a bit more like Electro Punk, but they were part of this scene and they rocked, 1983+)

Death Rock (an evolution of the above; a style of rock music with bleak themes that often includes electronic elements or even heavier guitar effects, more processed sound than Goth Rock):

Christian Death (1979-80s)
Gun Club(both of these were original Death Rock, emerging in '79)
Bella Morte (2000s)
Cinema Strange(and these two are more part of the "revival"

Darkwave/Electro Goth(Goth music that's kind of a bit like depressing dance music, and goth music that's based more around electronic elements as opposed to just having them):

Switchblade Symphony (1991+)
Machine in the Garden (2000s)
Diva Destruction (2000s)
Collide (2000s)

Industrial(Industrial is NOT technically goth, but is linked with it; a cold, harsh, often metallic sound with lots of synthwankery):

Throbbing Gristle (though they're really more expriemental, it's them that coined the phrase)
NON
Monte Cazazza
The Skeptics

(these are pulled from Wikipedia as to be honest, even I'm confused with Industrial, but this is where the term comes from).

EBM/Futurepop is often what people call "industrial"; and is even further out there; check out Assemblage 23, Syrian for electro goodness.

Ethereal/Folk/World(Mystic ambient s**t and organic textures):

Dead Can Dance (1982+)
Black Tape for a Blue Girl (1984+)
(some) Faith and the Muse (1994+)
Rhea's Obsession (2000s)

The most famous Ethereal band is actually "Enigma", but they're not gothic Ethereal.

All dates are approx as I can't be arsed researching them exactly.

Basically, if you check into those bands, and the subculture revolving around those bands, you'll get an idea of what "goth" is.

It just annoys me when probably one of the greatest and most creative musical scenes of all time just gets overwritten with what are essentially just spooky metal bands.

Well, I hope this clears it up.

yay, that's what we need, we need more ill conceived music sub genre labels for bands to not fit into.

genres are a vague descriptive concept used in a music industry flooded with new bands so we can tell each other roughly what a bands style is and gauge the likely hood of us liking them.
that is all.

a genre does not define a band and nor can you close off the classification of a genre to bands outside the few you've enjoyed and decided opitimised it.

its annoying, like when kids start calling greenday punk, or i dunno, bullet for my valentine metal or something. but deal with it.

That doesn't matter since most people WILL cla** one band or another and I don't want people buying me Cradle CDs just because I like the Sisters of Mercy. Labels are useful in seeking out new music - I don't want to spend hours wading through R&B or Swing music.

Lumping acts like Manson in with Joy Division is what's ruined the genre, quite literally. You don't get those kind of bands past the 90s.

Music is a dynamic system. Goth music developed from a scene, it has a history, and understanding it helps understand the music itself and where it comes from. Music coming "Out of nowhere" is exactly the problem we're having in the digital age - while some of it is new and creative, we're not part of anything anymore, there is no music culture.

And ultimately - it is a word that describes something; it's a fact. It's irritating when pompous children act like it's their divine right to twist that.

Yes, I can say that. And other people used to. And I used to have a place to talk about the music I enjoyed.

Now, because people agree with what you're saying, I don't. This forum is proof enough of that. The lines might not be 100% clear cut but there's still some level of division between scenes. Even if you don't agree with that, you should respect it.

i agree with alexkidd, genres are just a way of giving a potential listener an idea of what a certain band sounds like


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there's already enough sub-genres as it is without every single band that doesn't conform exactly to the standards of another band before it (which basically means a copy) needing a new classification.
I'm sick of them.

also not every kid is gonna know the subtleties of difference between heavy metal and trash metal... or adult for that matter .....or professional.

this is a general forum and its not expected or needed.

i'm sorry there's not many specialist sites anymore, catering for your exact tastes.
if there was a calling for them they'd be there.

Listen, if someone googled(or Altavista'd rather) "goth music" back in the 90s, they would get actual goth rock.

If they do it now, there's a damn good chance all they'll get is the nonsense I'm talking about.

That's why the scene is dying - people can't find out about all these great bands because Manson et. all are in the way. Attempts to find out about goth music will result in finding these. All the bands that were a lot more creative and inventive, and importantly, actually belonged to the definition, and being overwritten.

This is why labels are important. Like it or not, there are always going to be stylistic divisions between music. I know that I *generally* like music in the area of being gothic because of it's use of effects and ambience. I know I *generally won't* like things in the area of Cradle of Filth.

There are a lot of people that think the same - not because we're conditioned to like everything within a certain genre(like some people honestly can be), but because it all has a similiar sort of appeal. The fact is that music isn't simply something you slice and dice - genres are specific "towers" on the big world of music. Getting rid of them won't mean everything gets beautiful blended - we won't know where to go from where.

BECAUSE of what some of these kids are doing, it's killing the music I love. No matter what your views on genres, it's still doing this, people can't find out about these great bands that were previously sold as being "goth".

Trivium is the best.

'Nuff said.




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of course they can.


just because other bands are more popular (and i in no way mean better) than your favorites, the originals doesn't mean its destroying them.

its always annoying when something you've liked for a long time suddenly becomes cool and it all feels cheapened.
....i'm still waiting for it to happen to me and de la soul ...

but you just gotta accept it and realise that it doesn't impact on your appreciation of your favorite music.

to a degree i see what you're saying,
but in order for this not to happen genres would have to be split up on a timescale.
like goth 90-95.
thats silly and impractical. and not how people think.

Thanks for the lesson. Now I know why I didn't even care in the first place.


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