Can a pure stoic be considered one to have acheived a "nirvana" of sort

Stoicism, as defined for the layman in Wikipedia:

"Stoicism teaches the development of self-control and fortitude as a means of overcoming destructive emotions; the philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos). A primary aspect of Stoicism involves improving the individual’s ethical and moral well-being: 'Virtue consists in a will that is in agreement with Nature.' This principle also applies to the realm of interpersonal relationships; 'to be free from anger, envy, and jealousy,' and to accept even slaves as 'equals of other men, because all men alike are products of nature.'

"The Stoic ethic espouses a deterministic perspective; in regards to those who lack Stoic virtue, Cleanthes once opined that the wicked man is 'like a dog tied to a cart, and compelled to go wherever it goes.' A Stoic of virtue, by contrast, would amend his will to suit the world and remain, in the words of Epictetus, 'sick and yet happy, in peril and yet happy, dying and yet happy, in exile and happy, in disgrace and happy,' thus positing a "completely autonomous' individual will, and at the same time a universe that is 'a rigidly deterministic single whole.'"

Seems to me, stoicism, today, is usually given a very bad light, as those who possess "stoic" traits usually are viewed as cold-hearted and lifeless. However, as the bold illustrates how, stoicism wasn't always viewed this way, and was actually quite virtuous back in the day of its origin among Greek philosophers, albeit hard to obtain, indicating an ability to reach a state of bliss, not from ignorance, but rather, from a state of joy despite what the world inevitably hurls at you. And this doesn't necessarily have to translate to cold-heartedness, but, rather, ultimate un-nerving joy, no?

Discuss.

While I do believe that "choose happiness" is a great philosophy for life overall, I also believe there is value and purpose in other emotions and that a person who consistently suppresses their emotions would be in a state that is a long ways off from nirvana. I do think stoicism is mastery of suppression of emotions, and therefore do not believe that they are in a state of nirvana. More like denial.

I don't think that is what they are saying at all. Rather than denying, they are addressing such things and then learning to come away with an ability to be content despite. I think there is a difference there.

I'm not so sure it could be accomplished in a single lifetime, since those emotions are seemingly hardwired into our brains. Could acceptance of those negative emotions accomplish the same result?

Indeed, such as state is probably as impossible as achieving true nirvana would, but it shouldn't stop one from trying. And, I think that these ancient stoics did accept those negative emotions as quite valid, but were able to underlie it with contentment despite of it, and, later, happiness that simply replaced it. At least they tried to, as I would imagine it involved a lot of discipline.

I don't want to over simplify this, but I think that beginning with a "happy acceptance of everything" would be a good start, or possibly the end result. This would also include accepting one's own wickedness for what it is, and then moving beyond those negative traits. You are correct, it would take a lot of self discipline, and self vigilance. On second though I suppose it is possible, and worthwhile, even if one only achieves half of the journey.

I believe it's possible to achieve. I also believe that people were more self disciplined and emotionally balanced back then than in today's day and age. That could be why such things are viewed differently. What we don't want to see, we often don't.

I suffer from MI but you see my attempting to try and keep a comical mood most times.

I suffer a lot but try to maintain content despite - I just don't want to go back to the depression I had in '97 where in I wasn't content to do anything and just lied in bed most of the day with a void in my heart.

Thus, ever since, I hold back ill emotion most times and place myself in denial.

Well, I don't think we could ever achieve perfection as an individual, even if we were in a better environment, as you suggest, but certainly such pursuits were more readily accepted and valued in their day and age than now.

I was reading that their philosophy was considered pagan by the Christians, and is the reason it died out, as Christianity began to spread. Only to resurface its present day negative meaning, as to shun all joy and other positive feelings as well as negative feelings.

That makes sense. So how much meditation came into play in order to achieve any measure of Stoicism? It seems to me that would have to be part of it. To submit and deal with issues rather than stubbornly insisting on being happy. I don't know much about this, but it doesn't sound far from what a Monk does... Minus religion?

Yes, I saw similarities to Eastern religion as well, including meditative practices. In being a philosophy mixed with a spiritual approach to life, the stoics included a lot of self-dialogue and continual reflection on problems and solutions to everyday life situations, as well as constant reminders and practice.

One, Marcus Aurelius, wrote...

"Say to yourself in the early morning: I shall meet today ungrateful, violent, treacherous, envious, uncharitable men. All of these things have come upon them through ignorance of real good and ill... I can neither be harmed by any of them, for no man will involve me in wrong, nor can I be angry with my kinsman or hate him; for we have come into the world to work together..."

And, I would imagine, as Marcus went about his day, he would keep such an approach in his mind, always reflecting as he went along, and putting it to better practice each and every time. While that might sound awfully regimented and unappealing, I am sure it got easier and more natural as time wore on.

What an amazing quote. Thanks for sharing. I can see how that would bring a sort of peace over a person. Even if not fully achieved. It could have a very calming effect, and with the understanding, happiness. I've recently considered meditation to deal with some issues of my own. How interesting..

The calm approach to life is definitely appealing to me about this as well. I'd be interested in knowing in the future how it works out for you on you issues, if you do try it. Good luck.

I think it may start out that way; but in the end, they learn to accept what is happening to them. Through 'choice'; And view it as a gift of sorts. To learn, and grow by. The end result being joy.
The kind that only wisdom can teach.

There's a book I read from time to time that teaches this...

We should be content with what we have and not envy the accomplishments of others. Treat all individuals, regardless of who they are, as we ourselves would like to be treated.


I try to do that because it makes life so much easier. No, I don't live in a constant state of happiness, but I don't mope around kicking myself because I haven't achieved what others have.

Life is going to happen whether we're ready for it or not. It does no good to dwell on the negative aspects of life, because all you're doing is feeding that negativity and in the end, all you've really accomplished to do is tear yourself down. Life moves on, with or without you.