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Eaglebauer On July 23, 2019
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Saint Louis, Missouri
#16New Post! Jul 06, 2017 @ 11:57:45
@Leon Said

The former doesn't impose on certain individuals. It's just a stat that is left out of all birth certificates. I think that would be okay. Not needed.

The latter makes one's birth certificate unique to all others and which the individual had no say on.


Well, the former doesn't provide any say to the individual either, does it? You're not supposed to have a say in what goes on your birth certificate. It's a means of identifying someone. Nothing more.

In the end, do you really have a say in how others identify you anyway?

Do you believe that certain identifiers are necessary in an established nation that has a built in need to keep track of its citizens?

I guess part of my problem with this is...M or F on your birth certificate has nothing whatsoever to do with who you are or whatever your subjective view of yourself is. It's an identifier based purely on a biological trait (yes...in the case of a birth certificate it is 100% biology...it's just a signifier of which set of genitalia you were born with) and it's used for census information, credit history, and a lot closer to home for me...criminal history and law enforcement information. I have had so many arguments with people who thought it was racist for me to ask "was he white, black, or Hispanic?" when getting a description of a suspect or even of a victim.

What happens when the question is asked "was it a male or female who was robbing the gas station?" Is that an appropriate time for someone who thinks there are (I've lost track of how many) genders to argue with the person asking the question? Or can we just f***ing agree once and for all that some people look like men and some people look like women and move on (I'm not expressing frustration at you there...just in general)?

I can pretty much guarantee that if it hasn't happened yet, a conversation like that will happen in the next few years where someone will be asked to describe another person (criminal, victim, whatever) and will get ridiculous and uncooperative when asked what gender the person is.

A "U" on a birth certificate does not do anything to change who someone is. The same goes for "M" and "F." That person can still have whatever opinion of him or herself (I'm not going to say "themselves" ) he or she chooses. If I look at you (having a vague memory of what you look like from photos I've seen), I am going think you're a man. If somewhere in your mind you think you're something else, it can't really fall to me to read that in you...and if you think you're a woman and you rob a bank and I witness it, I'm still going to describe you a man when I call the police. Regardless of what you want other people to call you, the majority of them are going to see you as a man, too.

(Just to note, I'm not insinuating you think you're something other than a male...I have no idea but I suspect you believe you're a man)
Leon On December 21, 2023




San Diego, California
#17New Post! Jul 06, 2017 @ 14:06:31
@Eaglebauer Said

Well, the former doesn't provide any say to the individual either, does it? You're not supposed to have a say in what goes on your birth certificate. It's a means of identifying someone. Nothing more.

In the end, do you really have a say in how others identify you anyway?

Do you believe that certain identifiers are necessary in an established nation that has a built in need to keep track of its citizens?

I guess part of my problem with this is...M or F on your birth certificate has nothing whatsoever to do with who you are or whatever your subjective view of yourself is. It's an identifier based purely on a biological trait (yes...in the case of a birth certificate it is 100% biology...it's just a signifier of which set of genitalia you were born with) and it's used for census information, credit history, and a lot closer to home for me...criminal history and law enforcement information. I have had so many arguments with people who thought it was racist for me to ask "was he white, black, or Hispanic?" when getting a description of a suspect or even of a victim.

What happens when the question is asked "was it a male or female who was robbing the gas station?" Is that an appropriate time for someone who thinks there are (I've lost track of how many) genders to argue with the person asking the question? Or can we just f***ing agree once and for all that some people look like men and some people look like women and move on (I'm not expressing frustration at you there...just in general)?

I can pretty much guarantee that if it hasn't happened yet, a conversation like that will happen in the next few years where someone will be asked to describe another person (criminal, victim, whatever) and will get ridiculous and uncooperative when asked what gender the person is.

A "U" on a birth certificate does not do anything to change who someone is. The same goes for "M" and "F." That person can still have whatever opinion of him or herself (I'm not going to say "themselves" ) he or she chooses. If I look at you (having a vague memory of what you look like from photos I've seen), I am going think you're a man. If somewhere in your mind you think you're something else, it can't really fall to me to read that in you...and if you think you're a woman and you rob a bank and I witness it, I'm still going to describe you a man when I call the police. Regardless of what you want other people to call you, the majority of them are going to see you as a man, too.

(Just to note, I'm not insinuating you think you're something other than a male...I have no idea but I suspect you believe you're a man)


Fair enough. With the blanket omission, I was just viewing it as if we formerly had any meaningless statistic, such as parental addresses on it, and then decided to remove it. Then everyone would be in the same boat and could identify their gender of their choosing later, perhaps on a state ID, passport, etc. It just seemed to me, in this case, the parent was making the unique decision for the child what goes on his/her certificate. But your arguments are valid. I really didn't put too much thought into it, as it was my initial gut reaction. It probably would be more controversial in my mind if the parent decided to label him a her, or vice versa, rather than by genitalia or with a U.
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