Forum Index > News & Politics > Animal Rights | >> these poor animals need our help! | | |
 May 10, 2008 @ 11:10:32 | #151 | rogy
Über-General
480 points
50/M/, United Kingdom
Join Date: Dec 2007 | psy said: Yep i totally agree with all that, i'm involved in saving the baby Harp Seals in Canada when i discovered what was going on it appalled me so i decided to take a proactive approach to the subject Captain Paul Watson is an amazing human being. I know most people aren't going to start becoming vegetarians, all i know is i've been one for many years and the lack of meat in my life hasn't made me unhealthy in anyway whatso ever. This post was more about letting the original poster know i appreciate how upsetting scenes like that photo are, especially when it's all in the aid of vanity 
I took part in a Sea Shepherd campaign in Europe once - this time to stop Grey seals being killed in the Orkney Islands.
As for AR in general, clearly we are just at the beginning of a long road.
People like doubtingthomas and his generation may have to be long dead before we make much progress. But then animal rights is a new idea. The Sea Shepherd crew have only recently embraced veganism, for example.
Many people think that "animal rights" began in the 1970s with the publication of Peter Singer's inflential book, "Animal Liberation", not knowing that Singer is not a rightist but a utilitarian philosopher.
The first real attempt to establish animal rights as a philosophical idea was with the 1980s publication of Tom Regan's "The Case for Animal Rights".
And since the 1990s, Gary Francione has produced four books on AR philosophy - in 2006 he launched "Animal Rights: The Abolitionist Approach" which may be regarded as the modern rebirth of the animal rights movement talking rights seriously: link [www.abolitionistapproach.com]
rogy |   | |
| May 10, 2008 @ 21:14:12 | #152 | doubtingthomas
Über-Meister
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31/M/monterey, California
Join Date: Mar 2008 | Ok Rogy.
This is what I have done.
I have clicked on the above link you posted about the abolitionist aproach. Its facinating how the auther of the FAQ section moves from previous human rights issues to his version of animals righs and how he thinks they are one in the same.
He says that american slavery was justified in the thinking of human slaves as "things" or objects. Then he goes on to saying that we view animals in this same way. There for human slavery is moraly bad and animal slavery is just as bad.
What the bra** tacks of his overall message are. Animals share a similar moral standing as humans because we both share a central nervous system. This is why animal rights activists stop at animals as far as rights and not continue with insects and plants.
What my overal question has been and I think I have failed to convey it was.
Why do some people have a moral view that continues from humans to animals?
So I did some quick internet research and it lead me to understanding morality as a whole. Morals are evaluated through logic, experience and proper judgment, whether this originates from culture, philosophy, religion, society or individual conscience. In normative and universal sense morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people, under specified conditions.
So the idea of my moral code and your moral code is entirly based on how I was raised and what my experences are in life. Me trying to convince you that your wrong would be like trying to fight your ancesters lifetimes of teaching. The same goes for you trying to change other people.
Now don't get me wrong, its fun as hell to talk about this with one another. Because I believe that comparison to other individuals and thier beliefs only strengthens my own belief system, I feel that open converstaion is healthy.
Let me tell you something else I figured out. We know that your ablity to pa** on whatever your current moral code is based on your ablity to procreate and influince your ofspring.
Typicaly veganims is practiced by libral educated people with few children. Typicaly animal explotation people come from large undereducated families.
So we should look at the simple fact that current meat eaters are procreating faster than vegans.
If morals codes of conduct are passed on from parents to children and animal rights are a moral issue. I'm sorry to say, vegans and thier moral code are doomed to extenction.
Looking at it even larger. For as long as we have been humans, eating animals has been our way of evoloving. Not eating animals and over thinking your moral code is yet another proof that evolution is still around us and still in full effect.
You manics! You blew it up! God Damn you, God damn you all to hell!-- George Taylor | | | |
| May 13, 2008 @ 13:17:16 | #158 | rogy
Über-General
480 points
50/M/, United Kingdom
Join Date: Dec 2007 | doubtingthomas said:
Ok Rogy.
This is what I have done.
I have clicked on the above link you posted about the abolitionist aproach. Its facinating how the auther of the FAQ section moves from previous human rights issues to his version of animals righs and how he thinks they are one in the same.
That is simply because animal right thought is an extension of established human rights principles. People who are scared of animal rights tend to make rather more of it than is there. Animal rights is quite a modest idea in theoretical terms and follows a number of moves that have extended rights-based thinking.
Quote:
He says that american slavery was justified in the thinking of human slaves as "things" or objects. Then he goes on to saying that we view animals in this same way. There for human slavery is moraly bad and animal slavery is just as bad.
This book is a valuable source on this: link [www.amazon.ca]
Quote:
What the bra** tacks of his overall message are. Animals share a similar moral standing as humans because we both share a central nervous system.
This is why animal rights activists stop at animals as far as rights and not continue with insects and plants.
What my overal question has been and I think I have failed to
convey it was.
Why do some people have a moral view that continues from
humans to animals?
Is this such a problem? Humans are animals after all.
Quote:
So I did some quick internet research and it lead me to
understanding morality as a whole. Morals are evaluated
through logic, experience and proper judgment, whether this originates from culture, philosophy, religion, society or
individual conscience. In normative and universal sense
morality refers to an ideal code of conduct, one which would be espoused in preference to alternatives by all rational people,
under specified conditions.
So the idea of my moral code and your moral code is entirly
based on how I was raised and what my experences are in life.
Me trying to convince you that your wrong would be like trying
to fight your ancesters lifetimes of teaching. The same goes
for you trying to change other people.
The social world is not static but dynamic. People and societies change all the time.
Quote:
Now don't get me wrong, its fun as hell to talk about this
with one another. Because I believe that comparison to
other individuals and thier beliefs only strengthens my own
belief system, I feel that open converstaion is healthy.
Let me tell you something else I figured out. We know that
your ablity to pa** on whatever your current moral code is
based on your ablity to procreate and influince your ofspring.
Well, that may be the case in terms of what sociologists call 'primary' socialisation which takes place when children are very young. However, they soon move to 'secondary' socialisation and that means they are exposed to many diverse thoughts and opinions.
As we know, children often reject the values of their parents.
Quote:
Typicaly veganims is practiced by libral educated people with few children. Typicaly animal explotation people come from large undereducated families.
There is something to this, but I would resist the crude stereotyping.
Quote:
So we should look at the simple fact that current meat eaters are procreating faster than vegans.
If morals codes of conduct are passed on from parents to
children and animal rights are a moral issue. I'm sorry to
say, vegans and thier moral code are doomed to extenction.
Possibly, if this was the only way norms and values were transmitted. Luckily it is not.
Quote:
Looking at it even larger. For as long as we have been
humans, eating animals has been our way of evoloving. Not
eating animals and over thinking your moral code is yet
another proof that evolution is still around us and still
in full effect.
Well, you seem to be making my point here. However, I am not convinced anyone can 'overthink' their ethics.
rogy | | | |
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