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Building Regulations (Grenfell, Ghost Ship fires)

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mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#1New Post! Jun 24, 2017 @ 12:41:18
I was kind of surprised hearing about the Grenfell tower not having fire alarms and sprinkler / fire suppression systems, let alone the flammable exterior cladding.
There didn't seem to be an uproar about it. (Yes about the tragedy, but not about "breaking rules" )
I'm guessing building regulations are less strict in London than the US?

And now more buildings have been identified with flammable exteriors and residents are being evacuated.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40391395

b**** as we may about gov't overreach and regulations, but this demonstrates why at least some are there.

And one method of enforcement is prosecution: "Leaseholder Derick Almena and tenant Max Harris each were charged with 36 counts of involuntary manslaughter in the December fire at Oakland's Ghost Ship warehouse, said Alameda County District Attorney Nancy O'Malley."

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/05/us/oakland-ghost-ship-warehouse-fire-charges/index.html
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#2New Post! Jun 24, 2017 @ 16:46:02
Fire regulations in UK are in line with those that are required in all EU countries.

I would like to see compulsory sprinkler systems introduced here, however, the likelihood of that happening is extremely low, more so now than ever before due to the Brexit-obsessed Conservative Government's commitment to sweep away EU regulations and replace them with "Much less red tape", which is Tory public spending speak for "No Corner Left Uncut".

What you need to understand is that, with a Conservative government in power, the government view will be that the people who died were working class and some of them were even.... (gasp).... foreign..!!! Of course something will have to be done for the sake of appearances but we can't go throwing money at the unwashed, can we? Make one building safe and everybody would want it and how would we cut taxes for the billionaires who fund the Tory Party then..?



What will happen now will be a Public Inquiry into the fire which will no doubt take a very long time (we're talking years here) to come to any conclusions. The likeliest course of events will be:

* The Home Secretary will trumpet the start of the Inquiry saying "We must do all we can to make sure this never happens again".

* Over the next year or so, the Met will make a number of arrests in connection with the fire, which will receive widespread news coverage but all suspects will be released on the quiet and nobody ever charged.

* A scapegoat in middle management somewhere may be singled out and pilloried by the press but won't face criminal charges. The focus on that one poor sod will enable those at executive level to fade into the background. Some may retire on gold plated pensions.

* Nobody will ever be prosecuted. Some businesses involved may lose their contracts for public buildings maintenance but will later be given other contracts elsewhere to make up their losses after a suitable period of time has elapsed and the dust has settled.

* When the report is published, politicians will tell the BBC that all recommendations will be "Looked into". Several may even be implemented but only those at the cheaper end of the scale.

* At some point in the future, after those in power now have moved on to other departments or retired from politics, it happens again.


Am I being cynical..? Perhaps. Time will tell.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#3New Post! Jun 25, 2017 @ 11:35:57
In the hours after tragedy hit West London, only one question was uppermost in the mind of the Daily Express:

Did EU regulation mean deadly cladding was used on Grenfell Tower?

Despite a game attempt by the paper to link the disaster to the 2010 Energy Performance of Buildings Directive the answer unsurprisingly turned out to be "No, it didn't."

The cladding used on Grenfell Tower was banned in Europe and, as it turns out, in the UK too.... specifically banned by EU Regulations.

Meanwhile it was revealed that the Daily Express gave £75'000 worth of free advertising to the Conservative Party during the election campaign in an attempt to counteract the Corbyn surge. Another job magnificently done and we look forward to an Express article asking "Did EU regulations lead to the Daily Express throwing its money down the bog?"
mrmhead On March 27, 2024




NE, Ohio
#4New Post! Jun 25, 2017 @ 13:39:47
@Jennifer1984 Said

Fire regulations in UK are in line with those that are required in all EU countries.

I would like to see compulsory sprinkler systems introduced here, however, the likelihood of that happening is extremely low, more so now than ever before due to the Brexit-obsessed Conservative Government's commitment to sweep away EU regulations and replace them with "Much less red tape", which is Tory public spending speak for "No Corner Left Uncut".

What you need to understand is that, with a Conservative government in power, the government view will be that the people who died were working class and some of them were even.... (gasp).... foreign..!!! Of course something will have to be done for the sake of appearances but we can't go throwing money at the unwashed, can we? Make one building safe and everybody would want it and how would we cut taxes for the billionaires who fund the Tory Party then..?



What will happen now will be a Public Inquiry into the fire which will no doubt take a very long time (we're talking years here) to come to any conclusions. The likeliest course of events will be:

* The Home Secretary will trumpet the start of the Inquiry saying "We must do all we can to make sure this never happens again".

* Over the next year or so, the Met will make a number of arrests in connection with the fire, which will receive widespread news coverage but all suspects will be released on the quiet and nobody ever charged.

* A scapegoat in middle management somewhere may be singled out and pilloried by the press but won't face criminal charges. The focus on that one poor sod will enable those at executive level to fade into the background. Some may retire on gold plated pensions.

* Nobody will ever be prosecuted. Some businesses involved may lose their contracts for public buildings maintenance but will later be given other contracts elsewhere to make up their losses after a suitable period of time has elapsed and the dust has settled.

* When the report is published, politicians will tell the BBC that all recommendations will be "Looked into". Several may even be implemented but only those at the cheaper end of the scale.

* At some point in the future, after those in power now have moved on to other departments or retired from politics, it happens again.


Am I being cynical..? Perhaps. Time will tell.


Sprinklers: That's what I mean - I'm surprised they aren't already a requirement. As far as I know, even if a building was built prior to certain regulations (fire detection / suppression), if it is renovated, or I think even sold, it must be brought up to current spec's.

Conservative Gov't: Yes, we're seeing that here now too: Cutting "red tape" like prohibiting mines from dumping wastewater into waterways (reversed), and of course the Paris Agreement.

If the cladding was already banned by EU and UK, aren't there inspectors during construction/renovation to make sure regs are followed?

When I had the electrical panel replaced in my house, I had to removed the doors to a closet and call it a "cubby hole" so I wouldn't have to relocate the panel and service entry at a cost of close to $1k because of updated regulations.

A neighbor had windows replaced and the bedroom windows had to be enlarged to meet new regulations.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#5New Post! Jun 25, 2017 @ 15:51:26
@mrmhead Said

Sprinklers: That's what I mean - I'm surprised they aren't already a requirement. As far as I know, even if a building was built prior to certain regulations (fire detection / suppression), if it is renovated, or I think even sold, it must be brought up to current spec's.

Conservative Gov't: Yes, we're seeing that here now too: Cutting "red tape" like prohibiting mines from dumping wastewater into waterways (reversed), and of course the Paris Agreement.

If the cladding was already banned by EU and UK, aren't there inspectors during construction/renovation to make sure regs are followed?



re my embolden: Yes, they are. That's exactly what the inspectors are meant to do. Ensure that regulations are complied with.

This is the reason why the Metropolitan Police are talking very strongly about prosecutions for manslaughter by negligence.

But read my comments above about the likely outcome of the Inquiry into the fire. We've been here before.

Announcing a Public Inquiry sounds like the right thing to do, but we've seen in the past that such things aren't always what they might be trumpeted to be.

Firstly, will the Inquiry be led by a Judge who will have the power to order prosecutions as a result of evidence that comes to light? Will those called to give evidence have to do so under oath?

Secondly, what will be the terms of reference of the Inquiry? What will its scope be and more importantly, what will it NOT be required to look into? Anything outside the remit of the Inquiry will simply be ignored.

Thirdly, the "Slippery Eel" element. As we found with a number of such inquiries into alleged war abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan, those appearing before the panel all of a sudden "couldn't remember" what happened. Indeed, an entire regiment that was (allegedly) involved in possible war crimes in Helmand Province "Couldn't remember" anything at all. No prosecutions. Everybody walked. Such collective amnesia over Grenfell would be possible if those giving evidence don't have to do so under oath.

Fourthly, what will be the final outcome? If all the Inquiry can do is make recommendations, then there is no obligation for anything to be done at all. Politicians are highly adept at making it sound like they will follow recommendations and when the cameras have gone away, they start to revise the wording... water everything down... delay implementation on the issue of cost.... and then they cross their fingers that another tragedy doesn't happen until they've moved on and somebody else is in the chair.

And let's not forget that there will be a number of inquests into the deaths. The findings of those inquests will also have a bearing of what the Inquiry can do or recommend.

It's almost impossible to come to any other conclusion other than that there must have been - at the very least - gross negligence somewhere along the line. But where? At Political level? Contractor Level? Inspectorate level? We don't know and more to the point, we don't know how much the politicians turned a blind eye to.

But it's a pretty fair bet that there will be all manner of back-stairs bartering and the calling in of markers by those who have them, in order to ensure that their name stays out of the limelight.

Watch this space.
Jennifer1984 On July 20, 2022
Returner and proud





Penzance, United Kingdom
#6New Post! Jun 29, 2017 @ 15:01:42
And so it begins.....

The judge appointed to head the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire has expressed his "doubt over the scope of the inquiry."

BBC News: Grenfell Tower Judge

Sir Martin Moore-Bick has said that he is "Doubtful the process will be as wide-ranging as some residents hope."


Joe Delaney of the Grenfell Action Group expressed concerns that a judge with a background in commercial law would be dealing with what he said was a "criminal matter".

We've been here before. This is how the ducking and diving that kept those responsible for the Hillsborough tragedy free of prosecution for 28 years was enabled.

I hope the Grenfell residents are as dogged and determined as the Hillsborough families in their search for justice. They may need to be.
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