A small point: There is no lobotomy in Clockwork Orange.
(Note: I am not saying that anyone here, or anywhere, stated that there was. I am just pointing it out.)
In Clockwork Orange "they" (aka the authorities...doctors...) use what amounts to a merger of classical conditioning and operant conditioning...with a negative bent...in an effort to condition the violent behavior out of whatever the hell the bad guy's name is.
In the story it didn't work.
Conversely, a lobotomy doesn't "condition" behavior but rather changes it by slicing out a particular part of the brain and thus physiologically removing the person's ability to perform certain functions....including certain behaviors that are (or are perceived to be) anti-social.
(Anyone who knows better on any of that should feel fee to correct me.)
As a "final" thought: If one's behaviors can be sliced out of by removing part of one's gray matter, doesn't that suggest that the mind is nothing more than the electro-chemical processes of neurons in the brain?
If so, perhaps one might also wonder if the spirit is also linked to the function(s) of the brain...maybe one would wonder...
the video is one of that i do remember, considering i think i saw that the second time, i saw the movie in 90's on tv, it was pbs on saturday night.
in sense, alex should got lombotomy instead try to brainwashed to get rid the evil out of him. i am try remember another movie, i think it was a movie similar to " orange ". i can't remember it is pretty close to this plot.
i think george orwell's 1984, that the government is try control people and force them or led them to the slaughthouse. i have read the and seen the movie, " slaughthouse five ". definitely, a weird story and weird movie to watch.
guys, you why i seen the movie, because of val's body. ( twilite, easy, chilly out! )
i think " owell's animal house " explain how society work than 1984. of course, i haven't read these books the second time since 90's. more in tune with the plot of the storylines.
i have read all kurt vonnequt's books and see the movie adaptions. i only understand the surface of storylines in his books. there were hidden messages or more complicate story plots in the stories. there were over my head. i enjoyed what i read that understood and his stories were to read. he had a lot of imagination for the regular reader to enjoy like me.
maybe, in the " planet of the apes " that the apes could what the government couldn't. the apes performed lobotomies to control the humans, what the difference try control alex.
what the government found out alex, like the joker , you can't have a place that is eupora. you have a balance of nature, you can't live in a place without feelings.
A small point: There is no lobotomy in Clockwork Orange.
(Note: I am not saying that anyone here, or anywhere, stated that there was. I am just pointing it out.)
In Clockwork Orange "they" (aka the authorities...doctors...) use what amounts to a merger of classical conditioning and operant conditioning...with a negative bent...in an effort to condition the violent behavior out of whatever the hell the bad guy's name is.
In the story it didn't work.
Conversely, a lobotomy doesn't "condition" behavior but rather changes it by slicing out a particular part of the brain and thus physiologically removing the person's ability to perform certain functions....including certain behaviors that are (or are perceived to be) anti-social.
(Anyone who knows better on any of that should feel fee to correct me.)
As a "final" thought: If one's behaviors can be sliced out of by removing part of one's gray matter, doesn't that suggest that the mind is nothing more than the electro-chemical processes of neurons in the brain?
If so, perhaps one might also wonder if the spirit is also linked to the function(s) of the brain...maybe one would wonder...
Prefrontal Lobotomy was originally designed to treat mental illnesses such as Schizophrenia and Bi-Polar disorder (previously known as Manic Depression). The idea was that if you took out the part of the brain which controlled those conditions you could treat the disorder. It was later that this became a perceived treatment for anti-social behaviours. This goes right back to the late 19th century Switzerland where patients suffering from hallucinations were treated by removing part of the frontal lobe. This area was targeted because of its association with behaviour and personality.
Some pretty gruesome techniques were involved in early operations. Drilling a hole in the skull and injecting Ethanol to destroy the brain tissue in that area was one. Another was to enter the brain through the eye sockets using a modified ice-pick and a hammer.
It makes A Clockwork Orange sound rather tame, doesn't it..!!
But getting away from the medical / biological, I pretty much agree all the points made about the conflict between free will and social order. It's been a literary topic for hundreds of years. Read Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoyevsky and read how Raskolnikov attempts to balance out the evil of murder by using the money he gained from the killing to perform charitable acts. A sub plot to this is how he not only convinces himself that some people not only have the capability to do such things, but also have the RIGHT to do it in order to rid the world of vermin (ie: the pawnbroker he murdered).
The proposition here is that murder is alright as long as it is committed in pursuit of a higher purpose.
Does the group have any views on this..?
@ Twilight: I take your points that many Brit / Euro movies of the 60's and 70's were more violent in visual content but would point out that films like The Wild Bunch and Soldier Blue were awful too. I have seen the uncut version of Soldier Blue and the final reel makes for dreadful viewing. I didn't find out until after watching it that it was a true story (which I read up on later, and was truly appalled).
We don't have 'censors' here in the sense that the State sets an arbitrary moral standard. The word 'censor' is pretty much frowned upon. We instead have the British Board of Film Classification (BBFC), which awards a certificate to each movie to set the viewing age at which the movie can be released.
This allows violent / sexual content to be displayed, but only to mature audiences. This would explain why A Clockwork Orange would get through with less cutting than perhaps would have been the case in the US.
I enjoy reading the points you make. Thanks for sharing.
i think have seen " soldier blues ", i really don't really remember it at all.
" the wild bunch " is a classic, i personally thought of a western movie. it was pretty close to " awefull ". the actoring is better than the storyline.
john wayne, henry fonda, jimmy stewart, and clint eastwood's western movies, and others really dominated in 60's and 70's.
the western and world war 2 movies pretty much, in 60's and 70's. the better movies were detective, crime, comedy, and drama movies. americans loves musical movies, i think four to six musicals in a year in 60's and 70's.
in the middle 70's, something change the movie theater, when western were dying out, movies like dirty harry and deathwish were in.
a new breed of film that something was like " airport ", " earthquake " and other disaster movies or charles heston's movies that he was in came out in early to middle 70's.
all sudden, a horror movie that came out in summer 1975, in a small american town that terrorized by a shark.
the movie called " jaws " literally change movies forever no longer, musicals, western, and ww2 movies. no longer teenagers had see to walt disney movies.
we had see " the godfather ', we want quality movies no longer regular " g " movies, we want to see quality " pg ' movies.
then in 1977, new breed with simply old fashion formula that still works, " good vs evil ".
bring back science fiction movies, going back cliffhangers movies like " buck rogers " and " flash gordon ".
who know simple storyline of like that you would normal see in knights of the round table " , " robin hood " and pirates movies. could transport into one of the greatest science fiction movies finance of all time.
" star wars "
i have to admit the british movies in 60's and 70's, were more mature to watch. some ways, respect their audiences than some turkey movies that we had american films had.
british movies were better in style, that american movies only hand full that good compare some british movies.
for example, in 60's, most our spy movies were comedy that starred " dean martin " and " james coburn ".
british came with a spy that have permission to kill. three numbers , you know hm as " 007 ".
for over 50 years, we known as " bonds, james bond " .
jennifer -many was that british themes like " clockwork orange " was way ahead of it's time. in sense to american audiences, because american movie productions didn't to deals those kind of subject matters.
i think american movie productions thought american audiences were dumb, not that bright. actually , more fact later in time in american movies.
i think in the late 70's and middle 80's, americans were see more mature movies come out of american movie productions.
March 27, 2017 @ 10:03:45 pm
should feel fee to correct me.)
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