I hate to rehash like this. Just go back and read most of the thread around page 1 and 2. I will give you highlights from what was discussed. The problem with Sodom and Gomora that you bring up is this. That it is pulled from the old testament. Where God's wrath for those who didn't do as he commanded were punished with there lives, and if someone commited a crime againist you it was an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

The new testament (if you are christian and since that is many's stance) When someone commits a crime againist you. Turn the other cheek, and pray to the Lord that the person gains the understanding and why the Lord should forgive that person. If someone slaps you, turn the other cheek. For it is not OUR place to judge. Look at:

I Cor 5 11-13
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Yet again rehashing. Its NOT for us to decide, but if you believe in an afterlife. That person will meet judgement upon there demise (christian basic belief). Anything less you can read the bible and find this:

Let the first person without sin cast the first stone.

We cannot judge others its not our place. We have been given a guideline, and we cannot even follow it. Everyone is so worried about forcing there views on others.

The laws you talk about are quite simply defined as denying a person of Life, Liberty, or the pursuit of Happiness. Gambling is a hazy topic. Some of the Church's band together saying we do not need that sin in this state yada yada. But in all actuallity if they just never gambled instead of forcing there views on everyone this world would be in a much better place. You know we get pretty upset when Johovah's Witnesses try to convert us and tell us there story. Yet should the non christians also be as upset with Christians when they are forced to do something because it does not go along with the majority's beliefs.

So why should we use the christian views on this topic. Not everyone is a christian. We are forcing people to follow the laws we have set. Any amendment to the constituion making gay marriages illegal , is illegal in itself. Look again at the bill of rights. We are guaranteed that the Government shall not make any law to discriminate againist a miniority.

belle,

alright i'll give you that one, im not even going to attempt to act like i know the bulk of the bible, but putting all of that aside , it doesn't matter its all going to be opinions brought into this as well, we are just picking verses to go along with something that verses of the bible cannot justify, it all goes down to human rights and Pile still says it best :

Wheaty, i did not mean you know NOTHING about laws, what i ment is you have a wrong view of how they "should" work.

The laws you mentioned like murder cause harm to an outside party. As does rape. Age limits are to protect children because they are not old enough to make reasoned rational decisions. Child pornography is illegal becuase of the harm it does to the child in the porn.

Homosexuality is different. The act does not cause harm to an outside party. By banning it, or any other "Moral" law on sole grounds that it is wrong in the eyes of "God" corrupts out legal system.

That is what i ment when i said you dont understand how laws work. I ment how they should work.

You argue that this clause is what will be brought to the supreme court to argue in favor of allowing same sex marriges?

"The laws you talk about are quite simply defined as denying a person of Life, Liberty, or the pursuit of Happiness."

It will not work, let me tell you why.

Homosexuals can go out tomarow and get married. They can go find a priest to marry them. They can get thier white dress, go to the chapel, have the ceremony. They can even get a pretty cirtificate saying they are married. The only difference is it is NOT recognized by the state or federal Govt.

Saying that becuase the Govt doesnt think i am married, deprives my from being "happy" is not going to hold up in a court of law. That is why that arguement will fail, in my opinion.

good point, except it has not been proven if Homosexuality is a choice or a birthdefect (dont mean that to be insulting, but if it is genetic, it is a harmful mutation to the human race.)

Race is not a choice.

it isnt so much that they are homosexual, as much as Many people believe marrige is between 1 man and 1 woman. Same basis why poligomy is outlawed. The defence of Marriage act also perpatuates this belief. If you want to redefine marrige, do it the right way, through the legeslative process. Which is why i think it is a state issue.

here is an interesting page you all should look at and answer. it seems silly at first, but if you change all the "heterosexual" words to "homosexual" it's eerie the way those questions are common for homos, but for str8 people, they are never asked.

link [www.bearyouth.org]

it wasn't errie at all for me.

Telling someone they are in sin and judging them are two totally different things. By telling me I have judged, you have judged me according to text. So by that, you tell me there is no truth and we can do whatever we want. Matthew 18:15-20 talks about if your brother sins against you go and tell him, and if he refuses to hear, he is a heathen to you. Also at the end of the four gospels(Matt, Mark, Luke, John) Jesus says go into all the world and preach the gosple to every living creature. Now, how can I do that as a Christian if I can't tell people they are living in sin and that Jesus can wash those sins away?
You were right, Jesus does talk about celibacy, I was mistaken, it is in Matthew. But, he talks about celibacy untill one is married as does Paul in I Corinthians 7. II Thessalonians says, "Abstain from every form of evil." I Corinthians 5:9-13 You wrote my point. This passage talks about a brother in Christ who is sexually immoral, we are not to "keep company with." But, in verse 10 it says that if they are of this world then to tell them the error of their ways and preach them the gosple.

You all have also misquoted the Constitution. It does not say Life, Liberty, and the pusuit of happiness. In amendment 14 it says "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law." No mention of happiness. What is happiness anyway? Can someone tell me, I mean if you are truley happy, no, absolutely no problems whatsoever? Mark 8:36 "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?"

Ashmaker first you say that homosexuality is not harmful to anyone outside it's practice, then you say it's harmful to the human race. Hmm???
Well, what about adoption for homosexuals? If they can get married, why can't they adopt? Hypothetical... If a homosexual couple adopt a kid when he's 5 and doesn't know the difference what's the harm right? What happens to that kid when he's 10 and realizes that dad and uncle joe aren't really brothers? What about that kids rights?

lol, i believe that homosexual is either a choice, or an after affect of experiences you go through in life. (rejection, abuse and other environmental pychological forces)

My point was that if you believe you can be "Born" gay, then it is a birth defect, because a same sex couple cannot reproduce. Its like being born steril, its a defect and is harmful to the human race because it doesnt allow reproduction. But i dont believe you can be born gay, though i believe you can be born with qualities of the opposite gender. (gender and sex are 2 different things)

And I support allowing homosexuals adopt children

Cet you can't compare the old and new testement. They are two different covenents of promise. There are many covenents in the Bible, such as God's covenent to man that he will never flood the earth again as he did in the Great flood. But, the Covenents I speak of are the old covenent and the new covenent, the later being the law we are now under.

The Old covenent is the promise made to Abraham in Genisis 12 and 15, to be the father of many nations. Abraham's grandson was Jacob whose 12 son's were the fathers of the 12 tribes of Isreal. The Levits were the tribe of priests and the tribe of Judah was the tribe of Kings. Exodous 24 talks about the ten commandments which Moses a Levit(priest) was the mediator for the people. The law of Moses and the 10 Commandments are the same thing, to rule the Jewish people, the nation of Isreal. I said all that to say this.

The New covenent is spoken of in Hebrews 8:1-13. I'm not going to write it all out, but it basically says that the first covenent was perfect, as nothing from God could be imperfect, but he found fault with "them", the ones following it. So he gave us a new covenent. In verse 13 he says "In that He says 'A new covenent,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Actually Hebrews chapters 7,8,9, and 10 talk about this new covenent. In Zechariah 6:13 "And he shall sit on His throne So He shall be a priest on his throne. Jesus was born of the tribe of Judah, the tribe of Kings. But, he was also The High Priest according to Hebrews 8:1 that says he is at the right hand of God. Hebrews 7:12 says, "For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law." In Colossians 2:14 it says, "having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." This also speaks of the old convenent, the law of Moses, that was nailed to the cross. Meaning, it died when Jesus died, and we are now under his law, the new covenent, or New Testement. See, the old testement got us ready, or prepared us for the New. Jesus is the Mediator of a better covenent, which was established on a better promise, Hebrews 8:6.

It's not that the old covenent could not save, because it could, the Jews that followed the Law, but it could not forgive sins. Its that the New covenent could forgive sins to all and give salvation unto all.

As for believing or not, you gotta have faith. Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."