"Only evolution and other women know what women want" Jennifer1984

More Pics
Olympic Junkie
Penzance, United Kingdom Joined: Mar 2009 |
| |
|
Before I start, I will put a feminist alert on this post so that anybody who can’t handle a female point of view should click off right now. I know that a lot of men think of feminism as a bad thing, as Rebecca West once said, “I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute.”
For those who aren’t quite clear, in a nutshell, feminism is nothing more than the desire that women are treated like equal human beings, not a desire to denigrate men. I just wanted to get that clear before I start, ok..?
I’m quite sure that some of you will argue that I’m over-reacting to the size of the problem, but it’s a pretty safe bet that those who say that will be men. All will qualify their statements with “I’m not sexist” and some may even assert that sexism in football is ‘under control.’ Yer, right.
I posted on the main board, expressing my opinion about an incident in a match between Cardiff City and Middlesbrough and the common thrust of the discussion soon became pretty much divided along gender lines. The females responding to the post saw the attack on Sian Massey as being deliberate whereas the males were overwhelmingly of the opinion that it was an accident.
How is it that an incident which is clearly caught on camera should produce opinions that are so sharply divided along gender lines..? Why is it that there is such resentment towards women in football..? Why do so many men feel they need to defend (literally) their turf..? Why are women seen as such a threat to male hegemony in the game?
I think it’s more than just a matter of the game itself it’s more to do with what football represents to many men (not all, but many). Some males regard it as the last place remaining where men can simply let go and be themselves. In football grounds they feel safe, surrounded by their own kind they can escape into their weekly fantasy. In identifying with their team they can dream…… and dream they do. The football pitch is the “hallowed turf”, where demi-gods do great deeds that all in the crowd wish they could do, but of course, they know they never could. And so they come and they worship and they sing their songs and tell female supporters to “Get ‘em out for the boys, darlin” and then laugh and slap each other on the back at such wit… such banter….. “Yeah, that’s right b****, get ‘em out for the lads. Let’s see yer tits, luv” Hahahaha… guffaw, guffaw, guffaw…..
Sad, isn’t it..?
In truth though, this sort of man will just about tolerate females in the crowd. They do this because there is a certain kind of female who will join in with this blokieness. Aptly named “The Geezer Bird” (Prime example: Helen Chamberlain of Sky Sports fame), she will wear the club shirt…. Even kiss the badge on occasion. She will weep when the team loses and hug her man passionately when they win.... which (the hugging, that is) is highly approved of because it is an indicator to all his mates that he’s going to “get it” tonight.
And so, women will be tolerated in the crowd… provided they play the game, that is. The game being to adopt masculine traits, dress like a male fan and swear, burp and fart like male fans. All this is acceptable.
But now we have a new breed of woman in football grounds, and this is most definitely NOT acceptable. The female match official.
The female match official is a threat to this last bastion of masculinity. Why..?
Could it possibly be because she is breaking the rules of acceptability.? She’s defying the unwritten code..? If so, what is it that she has done that is so terrible..?
The answer is very simple. The female match official is… wait for it… shock horror…. SHE IS ON THE PITCH..!!
The pitch is the holy of holies. It is the mecca of football…. The hallowed turf…. The field of dreams…. It is sacrosanct male territory, where Saturday’s heroes clash like Gladiators in the colloseum. And it’s being violated by A BLOODY WOMAN..!!
Every man in the crowd has dreamed, since childhood of being such a hero…. Of being out there….. of scoring the winning goal, or lifting the trophy high above his head to the ecstatic roars of acclaim from the fans who worship him. It is the ultimate male ego-orgasm.
Of course, the vast overwhelming majority of men realise by adolescence that they personally are never going to make it and so they attach themselves to their club with a level of tribal devotion and brotherliness that would make Freemasonry look like the multicultural society.
The team is everything to them. I read once (can’t remember who said this) that to many men, their football team is everything. They could cut themselves off from their relatives…….. divorce their wives…. disown their kids…. quit their jobs…….. but they will NEVER change their football team. Once that connection is made in childhood / adolescence it is set in concrete for life.
The old music hall joke about the woman who complains to her husband that he loves Tottenham Hotspur more than he loves her to which he replies “I love Arsenal more than I love you” is less of a joke than some might imagine. The relationship of a man with his football team can be the purest of loves…… it can transcend just about every other emotion that a man feels.
Striker Alan Shearer once said on air “There is nothing better than scoring a goal. Nothing, no other feeling and no other experience anywhere in life comes anywhere near it”, to which Birmingham City director Karren Brady replied “Have you told your wife that?”
And so we see the importance in which football is held in the psyche of many men. Not all, of course…. The majority actually hold a balanced view on life….. but for a significant number, it is a very real thing…. And it is this proportion of the football watching public that causes all the problems…….. and it is not restricted to the fans in the crowd.
Female football officials… mostly in the diminutive shape of Sian Massey at the moment are perceived by this group as a threat to all that they hold most dear.
She is on the pitch. She is out there, where so many men would give their back teeth to be..… where they have dreamed of being since they were little boys… where their greatest fantasies take place and all their hopes and dreams either come true in rapturous ecstasy, or are brought crashing down in abject misery. She is out there……… and not only that, she is in a position of authority.
She can affect the outcome of the match with one wave (or not as the case may be) of her flag. She can completely dash the hopes and dreams of all those men, seemingly at her whim.. What if, one week, Rooney bursts through the Manchester City defence and That…. WOMAN… puts her flag up and causes United to not qualify for the Champions League next season, costing Manchester United tens of millions of pounds in the process and enraging seventy thousand pilgrims at the Theatre of Dreams.
She can do this….. This wee scrap of a girl who actually is very good at her job. At every match she officiates in, her every decision is scrutinised on television in depth by analysts, former players, armchair pundits and of course, men in pubs. All desperately hoping she will get an important call wrong somewhere. So far she hasn’t, but one day she will….. nobody is perfect, she is bound to get one wrong one day…… and then they will all leap on the opportunity to crucify her with great glee. . Vilify her… slaughter her live on Super Sunday and why..?
Because she’s there. Because she’s doing what she is doing….. and they aren’t.
The encroachment of women into football isn’t new… or any sport, come to that. Women are becoming more involved all the time. At under ten level in England, more young girls are taking up football than young boys, so the FA says. The Rugby Football Union claims that Rugby is fast overtaking football as the sport of choice for parents of young boys. Many parents, appalled by what they see on Match of the Day, or the excesses of overpaid players that they read about in their papers or hear on the news, don’t want their sons to be involved in that.
They don’t want their kids to turn into bad tempered hooligans who couldn’t spell sportsmanship if you wrote it down for them…. These parents don’t want to have to rub shoulders with the “touchline terrorists” that are so prevalent in youth football in England. They don’t want their sons to be taught how to cheat, and dive, and feign injury, or to swear at officials.
They don’t want their sons to grow up to be sexists.
And so increasing numbers are turning to a sport with a reputation for strong, manly play, but with a spirit of camaraderie and also of respect for officials….. and that game isn’t played with a round ball.
But at the female grass roots level, that kind of behaviour doesn’t appear. Oh for sure, some adult females can get feisty during games, there is no denying that…. but female football has none of the awful reputation of the male game. And so girls football is flourishing in England. We (England) have been slow off the mark in comparison to other countries such as Norway, Germany or the USA….. but we’re catching up and there is one bet I’d be happy to make, and that is that the England women’s team will win a World Cup before the men’s team does..!!
The old male dominated bastions of sport are falling one by one…. Even the MCC, that haven of cricket conservatism had to bow to the inevitable. Before the 1999 Cricket World Cup, the MCC wanted a multi-million pound grant from the National Lottery to help pay for improvements to the Lords’ ground. They were told at first that they couldn’t have it because they discriminated against women by not allowing them to become MCC members and as the National Lottery does not give money to discriminatory organisations, they would either have to change their rules or not get the grant.
Money talks. They changed. The day that Rachel Heyhoe-Flint, former captain of the England women’s hockey, football and cricket teams walked into the Long Room at Lords’ as a member swept away a hundred years of male chauvinism. The Colonel Grumblies in their “Egg and Tomato” ties choked on their gin and tonics. They must have needed that lottery money really bad.
Karren Brady became the first female director of an English football club in the 1980s’ and has since been followed into the boardroom by the likes of celebrity chef Delia Smith at Norwich City. Wendy Toms became the first female to officiate in a league match in 1991. In 2000, she ran the line in the final of the Carling Cup at Wembley and also at two matches in the Olympic Games in Sydney in 2000. She was vilified and attacked by fans, players and pundits alike throughout her career but only quit the game when she decided to start a family. She stopped refereeing when she wanted to, not by being forced or hounded out.
She has since been followed by others, but the sexism rows are never far away. In 2006, Assistant Referee Amy Rayner was attacked by the then Luton Town manager Mike Newell who openly declared “I know this sounds sexist, but I am sexist. This is not parks football, so what are women doing here? This is tokenism for politically correct idiots” Newell didn’t last much longer in his job.
Amy Rayner was appointed to the FIFA list of referees at the end of that season.
Need I even mention Andy Gray and Richard Keys..? They were eventually sacked by Sky Sports for their on air comments about Sian Massey but the affair lingered on for several days before being resolved. Had they made similar comments based, not on the gender of match officials but about race, they would have been sacked quicker than you could say Ron Atkinson.
But all this talk of sexism provides an irritating smokescreen for something that should be an immense benefit to the game.. There is no doubt that refereeing causes great dissent and discussion in the game. Ask Frank Lampard. In last Summers’ world cup he struck a shot that hit the underside of the German crossbar, bounced down at least a metre over the line and came out. “No goal”, said the officials to apoplectic outrage from the England fans. But what goes around comes around. Last Saturday, when the same players’ much tamer effort was spilled by Tottenham goalkeeper Gomez and trickled towards the goal, Gomez stopped the ball from fully crossing the goal line, only this time, the officials gave a goal. Two horribly incorrect decisions made by male officials.
Imagine the furore if either of those decisions had been made by Wendy Toms… or Amy Rayner.. or Sian Massey….
There is clearly a crisis in refereeing. The game is under scrutiny like never before with cameras everywhere, ill discipline on the pitch and incorrect decisions that can affect the outcome of championships or cost the affected clubs many millions of pounds… and yet….. football fans want to completely ignore the talents that could be available from 53% of the population, namely, women.
With refereeing recruiting and retention at an all time low and some officials at local league level having to take charge of three matches or more a week because of the lack of men wanting to do the job, how can the game afford not to tap a resource that is willing, and very, very capable..?
You’d think that football would be welcoming women with open arms..!!
Biologically, physically and intellectually, there is no reason whatsoever why women cannot officiate at the highest level. Of course it will mean them being “on the park”…… on that sacred turf… but if they achieve their status on merit, do the job and show the resilience, persistence and strength of character to get there in the first place… then why not..?
Because they’re women..? Now tell me you’re not sexist. | |
 SparklyKatie
\m//O_O\\m/
| For a post condemning female sexism there's quite a lot of male sexism in there Jennifer.
Sorry most of what you said about what happens to women in football grounds I've never experienced. |
 galasTAray
Memento mori
| | There is definitely a lot of generalization and sexism in your post. Is that how you choose to get your message across? |
 Jennifer1984
Olympic Junkie
| Reply to Katie..... Have I said anything that isn't true..?
Is it sexist to point out things that actually happened..? My opinions about why things happen to female match officials are exactly that... opinions.... Feel free to challenge my thoughts if you have an alternative explanation for them.
But are you suggesting that Mike Newell didn't say those things about Amy Rayner..? Are you suggesting that Andy Gray and Richard Keys weren't sacked for their behaviour towards Sian Massey..? Are you suggesting that crowds didn't make Wendy Tom's life a misery..? Are you suggesting that Lords' didn't change their rules to allow women to become MCC members in order to get the Lottery Grant..?
Are you suggesting that I'm making all those things up..? If not, then you must agree that there is a sexist attitude in sport and if that is so, then why do you suppose it is..? I'd be interested to read your views. I ask you a question... What non-sexist reasons do some men have to resent women in football..? Over to you.
As regards your personal experiences in football grounds, I would suggest you are one of the lucky ones. I would guess that you go to matches with people who don't indulge in that sort of behaviour, but I know of women who have had to suffer that kind of abuse..... or am I making that up too..?
I believe you stated (correct me if I'm wrong) on the Sian Massey thread that the attack on her looked deliberate to you. Why did you think that..? What non-sexist reason do you think McNaughton would have for deliberately attacking Sian Massey..?
The easiest thing in the world, in any discussion, is to simply accuse the messenger of being wrong to raise the issue. That doesn't require any thought and it doesn't help to resolve questions. It would be more helpful if your comments were a bit more constructive than the easy-peays, automatic gainsay of retorting "No, you're the sexist".
That's just making it personal.
. |
 Jennifer1984
Olympic Junkie
| link [squaremile.shotdeadinthehead.com]
In case you think I'm making this all up........ You can buy these tee shirts and I have heard that they are quite popular amongst a section of Newcastle United supporters. |
 davii
I'm Awesome
| | I don't feel that all the men posting in the thread in question did take the view that you have suggested they did. |
 Electric_Banana
| Football bores me to tears and male bonding is inane.
I thought this was going to be about a female player in which it would be obvious why people were trying to discourage her from the game.
As for a referee or coach, it doesn't bother me but I normally don't watch anyway.
I have noticed, previously, that all other female participation was restricted to them coming out, dancing around and jiggling themselves so I see where you're coming from. |
 Jennifer1984
Olympic Junkie
| Thanks for your comments, Katie. Your candour is appreciated. As I said before, you are one of the lucky ones. It sounds like you have a good crowd of people to go with and that's never a bad thing.
My personal experience is in watching rugby union, a sport which has long had a very accepting attitude towards females. The crowds are very largely self-policing, if one idiot gets drunk or starts to abuse females he is pretty quickly put in his place by the other men around in the vicinity. From what I've seen, this is less so in football. To question other supporters is to risk getting a head butt in your face. The game has that sort of reputation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most matches are monitored on CCTV for crowd control purposes, fans are segregated and alcohol isn't allowed into the stadium, right.? Pretty much an indicator that there is a problem in the crowds, I would suggest.
You may personally find my methods of raising the issues distasteful and that's up to you. I don't have a problem with that... fair enough, say I. But I don't think you addressed the question, which was about why these instances that I've given (being the most high profile ones, but there are undoubtedly more if we scratch beneath the surface)occur in the first place.
I freely admit that I do not understand the workings of the male mind. You're quite right when you say that I have no experience of male thinking.... but I have put my arguments out there for anyone to discuss and debunk if they have an alternative reason.
So far, I see no alternative reason for the things I've suggested. Please feel free to prove me wrong.... One of you... somebody out there.... please put your argument as to why I may be wrong.
Merely rubbishing it on the grounds that you don't like the way it is written doesn't really move the question any further forward.
Are you suggesting that some men DON'T dream of being the goalscorer or the trophy lifter..? Are you suggesting that not one man in the crowd at Wembley on Cup Final day hasn't dreamed of being on the pitch...? I can't prove it, but I strongly suspect that some of them have, and the eventual extension of that, in the minds of some men, is that when they see a woman out there doing what they themselves would love to do but can't, they resent it solely on the grounds of her gender.
I'm glad you enjoy your football... truly, I am (although, aren't Blades struggling this season..?).. and I'm glad you don't experience these things, but I'd be very surprised if you really, really, believed deep down that there is no problem.
Strathclyde police stated earlier this year that when Rangers play Celtic, incidents of domestic violence increase by 1000%. Women are being physically abused because of the outcome of a football match. Now, that may not necessarily be "football sexism" per se, but it does show that there is a corollary effect from the game that affects women. It's part of the issue. Would you not agree with that.
Would you like your boyfriend / husband (sorry, I don't know your status) to come home and beat you up because his team lost..? Clearly that doesn't happen to you, but how do you feel for the women that it does happen to..?
All I would suggest is to sit back and wait for the day that Sian Massey makes a howler, or another Mike Newell or Andy Gray or Richard Keys gets caught out by his words or actions.
Then tell me there isn't a problem. |
 Eaglebauer
FOSSOR SAPIENS
| I realize that what we Americans call football is not the same game called by that name in your neck of the woods...but my son played on a football team last year with a female player who was regarded as one of the favorites on the team. And she was awesome.
I don't watch football on television...I'm into fitness but never really was interested in competetive sports...but my whole take on any issue of gender lines is this:
Player...official...fan...whatever capacity, a person should be allowed to hold whatever role he or she wants to hold provided the person is able to do so fairly and with competence. Morally I believe gender is completely irrelevant in most issues, but in reality there are a lot variables that make it relevant. It's unfortunate in my opinion, but it's true that females in roles of authority do sometimes face the unfair challenge of men who are their subordinates not taking them as seriously as they would a male superior. While I totally disagree with that stance, I also recognize it as a very real problem. |
 plebian_angel
Intergalactic hussy
| @Jennifer1984 Said
Would you like your boyfriend / husband (sorry, I don't know your status) to come home and beat you up because his team lost..? Clearly that doesn't happen to you, but how do you feel for the women that it does happen to..?
.
Since when do abusers need an excuse to beat on their victims? Blaming a football match and saying hey guys beat up their women because their teams lose is so ignorant I don't know where to start on your comments.
Men are not the problem and never have been. PEOPLE are the problem. Each individual person makes their choice on how to act.
All your posts on TFS comes off as man hating. Men are not to be hated. Maybe an individual is, but to cut down a whole sex because of the actions of a few is sexist. Yes you are sexist! |
 Jennifer1984
Olympic Junkie
| Replies to Plebian Angel:
Since when do abusers need an excuse to beat on their victims? Blaming a football match and saying hey guys beat up their women because their teams lose is so ignorant I don't know where to start on your comments.
I don't think football is so much an excuse (you cannot excuse domestic violence), it is more of a trigger. I agree with you that these men are likely to be abusers anyway, but there is a clear indication that football acts as a trigger at a specific time. Hey.... I didn't make the claim about a 1000% increase in domestic violence at these times, the Chief Constable of Strathclyde Police did. You can't accuse me of sexism for merely reporting statistics quoted by a person who is in a position to know.
Men are not the problem and never have been. PEOPLE are the problem. Each individual person makes their choice on how to act.
If this were a general conversation I would agree, but in this instance we are dealing with specifics and the specific in question here is football. There is a long and well documented correlation between football and violent behaviour in men. I don't know if you've ever heard of the Heysel Stadium riot, where rampaging Liverpool supporters caused 35 Italian fans to be killed. Now, that's not a sexist statement, that is an item of recorded historical fact. And it was caused by rioting men. Again, historical fact, not sexism.
English clubs were banned from European competition because of that riot for seven years. So, are you telling me that it's sexist to suggest that football doesn't cause violent behaviour in men..? How many people have been killed in violent behaviour associated with women in football..? I'd be interested to know.
All your posts on TFS comes off as man hating. Men are not to be hated. Maybe an individual is, but to cut down a whole sex because of the actions of a few is sexist. Yes you are sexist!
I believe I ask questions, suggest reasons and put them out there for constructive discussion. You seem to take this very personally and your condemnation is quite unwarranted.
The fact is, that these behaviours happen and there is a direct link and correlation with football. You don't see the same things in rugby or cricket or hockey or any other sport I can think of.
You see male and female line judges in tennis all the time. Women act as marshalls in golf tournaments alongside male colleagues without any trouble. Rugby and cricket are both bringing female officials in slowly, primarily as "fourth officials" and TV replay umpires..... and you don't see cricket club managers or commentators make the sort of comments that Mike Newell, or Andy Gray or Richard Keys made..
This sort of thing is prevalent in football. I ask: Why is this..?
Perhaps you think it is a crime to ask questions about male behaviour. Oh dear... can't do that, now can we..? No, asking questions and putting forward ressoned proposals as to why these things may happen is definitely not the done thing, now is it..?
I put forward my considered opinions and asked for constructive comments. As I said to Katie, if I am wrong, then please tell me how. Do YOU have any plausible explanation for the attitude of Keys and Gray.... et al.
Well........ do you...?
You can make all the insults you like and call me any names you wish, but it doesn't give your argument any credibility. Bland, irrelevant statements such "people are the problem" suggest you don't have any sort of alternative argument and are simply blustering because of some personal dislike you have of me.
I can't be held responsible for your personal attitude towards me. That's a problem you have to sort out with yourself. The issue is still out there and from what I've read, nobody has come up with any alternative to my proposals. You've blown a lot of hot air, yes. A lot of bluster, certainly. A lot of arm waving and catcalling and hissy-fit-throwing for sure.
Playground behaviour, Plebian Angel...... Playground behaviour.
But where is the alternative proposal..? I'd be interested to read why you think football has all these problems..... all of which are associated with the male element in the game.
Problems that other sports don't seem to have.
. |
 DorkySupergirl
| I do not know much about football, what we call soccer here or the incident you are speaking of. I do however wish to comment about something regarding a female soccer player being treated differently than a male soccer player.
I remember media coverage of the Brandi Chastain incident. For those who do not know or remember, she was female soccer player for US. After her victory against China, she ripped off her jersey, dropped to her knees in her sports bra.
Many of the news media were ready to tar and feather her for this. I remember watching sports news and it was implied its okay for man to take off his shirt in victory but not a female. She had a sports bra on for goodness sakes. Women are often running just in them and sports. So why could a man do it bare chested and a female not do it in a sports bra?
Another thing, we have female hockey team for olympics. After their last victory and gold medal winning, some went back on ice after and had beer celebration and some were underage. This was not proper behavior according to the rules but news media I saw had a field day about it because they were women. It was implied if men it is more acceptable.
These are just two specific cases I remember but I have found often times women are sports are treated different than men in sports. Apparently because we are a fairer sex we can't get away with some things men often do. |
 Jennifer1984
Olympic Junkie
| Replies to Sparkly Katie
Re: Headbutting:
link [news.bbc.co.uk]
I linked to this article because I remember it from some time back. I originally come from South London and lived in the Charlton Athletic catchment area. I recalled the item from the news of the time. It isn't 100% relevant to what we were talking about, but the article as a whole does tend towards an indication that civil disorder on a significant scale is treated in a blase way by some fans.
I'm sorry to hear that Sheffield United were relegated today. You're now down in the third tier, right..? I guess that means your team will be visiting The Valley next season at some time. Good luck, if you come down to see the game, the ground is just across the road from the train station so you won't have any trouble finding it and the "trouble" pub at the bottom of Charlton Church Lane was closed down a couple of years ago. If you come, I hope you enjoy your visit.
I pointed out to Plebian Angel... after her somewhat personalised tirade.... that other sports don't seem to have the same issues as football. Rugby men, with whom I have had many very enjoyable meetings and post match social events...... have always been absolute gentlemen.
My father used to play rugby for Blackheath. For 80 minutes thirty very large, powerful, aggressive men would hammer ten barrels of crap out of each other, but as soon as No Side was blown, it was three cheers, clapping each other off the pitch and everybody into the bar where they would drink their own bodyweight in beer and eat curries that could strip paint. But acrimony towards the officials..? No way. The referee and officials would come into the bar and be welcomed. Treated with respect and friendship. The club officials and management went out of their way to let the match officials know that they were appreciated..... that they are important and valued in the game. This doesn't happen in football, as far as I can see.
You talk of abuse of match officials in football as an everyday, commonplace occurrence. I was brought up in rugby and learned respect for officials. I play tennis, lacrosse and netball and throughout my sporting life it has never occurred to me to question a referee or umpire. Would I have had the same level of respect for match officials if I'd grown up watching football..? I don't think so.
Don't you think that is a pretty sorry state of affairs for your game..?
What you describe is bad enough in itself, but when it is exacerbated by a further attitude of animosity towards an individual for no other reason than that she is female it makes it all the worse.
I've given up hoping I will get a satisfactory answer to my primary post..... That's not a criticism of yourself, by the way.... I'm grateful for your constructive and honest comments.... Thank you for taking the time and effort.
It just goes to show that this is all a very complex issue and the psyche and mindset of men who play this game is very deep.... almost unfathomable.
I still hold to my view that there is a proprietary attitude in the game and that has engendered a seige mentality borne of tribalism and sexism by a significant proportion of the fan base. I hasten to point out that at no point have I said ALL football people are like this, but the element that is, is quite significant and they do your game no credit. I stick to my arguments, if for no other reason than because nobody has proposed a reasonable alternative for those behaviours which appear (almost) unique to football.
At the end of the day............I think I'll stick to watching rugby.
. |
|